Sub 18 keeps eluding me

A 18:00 5k for a 42 yo is about worth a 16:45 for a guy about 28 yo

George Ilie wrote:

Well, you're all here.

I coached a 37 yo person and jumped from 20:00 to

George Ilie wrote:

The website had a glitch and my comment was cut off. Let's try again.

Well, you're all here.

I coached a 37 yo person and jumped from 20:00 to

George Ilie wrote:

Am I on Twitter?

The comments are always cut off.

You might want to avoid that "less than" symbol.

I was not using that magic spell.

The magic spell was using "

That was funny - eluding my comment :)

What I was trying to say excited is:

I coached a 37 yo person who jumped from 20:00 to sub 18 in 4 months.

The training method is not magic, but works like a charm.

No excessive effort, no boredom, but requires discipline.

Anyone interested to give it a shot?

Spill. (I am looking for sub18 in 2017.)

You should change your name to "Barely Legal".

Our predicaments sound similar (same age and some similar goals), except I'm probably far less organised in my training than you, due to parenthood (or not being able to organise myself properly in light of parenthood of my 3.5 y.o daughters) and and a second incidence of cracked ribs sustained playing basketball, leaving me no opportunity to run for another two weeks or play basketball for another five.

Are the 8's your only speedwork? What sort of recovery are you doing after each repeat? Why not try a 10 minute time trial in place of a 6 X 8, or a pyramid interval (a variation of what in Australia is known as a Mona Fartlek) where you're running at faster than your goal speed (not too much) and doing a jog recovery at around 4:00/4:10min/km. The outcome should be 10 mins of effort & 10 mins of recovery and if you're doing it properly you should cover more than 5k in the 20's; if not your efforts might be too hard or your recovery jogs too slow. Mine's below (assume equal recovery time after each effort):

8min easy warm up

30 (sec), 30, 45, 45, 60, 90, 90, 60, 45, 45, 30, 30

cool down run home (however long that is)

Better runners on the site will have their own variation.

Kudos on the weight drop. i'm looking to the same, but am lacking the discipline. The cracked ribs aren't helping either. The big thing is (which you're already doing no doubt) is fitting in your running around your work and lifestyle and family. If you can get the mix right life's alright. I'll be starting from scratch in about two weeks. With the effort stuff the key is to mix it up to keep yourself interested when things go awry or you stagnate.

Best of luck.

Alan, tell me:

- distance ran in past month

- comfortable pace in slow/steady runs

George Ilie wrote:

Alan, tell me:

- distance ran in past month

- comfortable pace in slow/steady runs

Very interested.

This week, 37

last week, 49

one before, 43

and before, 41

Longest runs were 13 miles. My comfortable pace (HR 140) is around the low 8 minute range, depending on temps and other factors.

I've been away from running for over a decade and I'm just slowly building my mileage up. I usually do one tempo or fartlek run a week. Nothing structured, though. Plan on a 5k in 4 weeks and another in mid-October.

Do something nasty. Like 5 @ one mile, once a week for a month. Do one other workout per week too that kills.

I took my best mile down 8 seconds behind this when I was a lad of 18... 2-mile came down by 29 seconds too; strength over speed. I'm no coach, but this works.

42 years old can't train like 18 year olds.

I think both Rocketman and no talent would benefit from Pete Magill's plan.

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-the-5k-puzzle

consistency wrote:

George Ilie wrote:

Alan, tell me:

- distance ran in past month

- comfortable pace in slow/steady runs

Very interested.

This week, 37

last week, 49

one before, 43

and before, 41

Longest runs were 13 miles. My comfortable pace (HR 140) is around the low 8 minute range, depending on temps and other factors.

I've been away from running for over a decade and I'm just slowly building my mileage up. I usually do one tempo or fartlek run a week. Nothing structured, though. Plan on a 5k in 4 weeks and another in mid-October.

Hello... consistency :)

Before checking the plan, please read the introduction, which is more important than the plan itself.

The training plan is made for your currently weekly mileage and a 8:15/mile pace.

For each run you will have a time and a distance assigned. You should stop when you reach one of them and NOT to try to run at that pace.

Every Mo,We and Fr, the training is specific to that week type (strength, distance, speed) - if not done, the week type doesn't make sense, so is important.

The training plan is a 6 weeks cycle. When it ends, the cycle is adjusted accordingly and starts over.

You will find some "0" values in the training plan. If you sign in, the plan is assigned to you and you will able to log your progress.

This is the plan:

A few notes for lecturers and people interested in training methods.

I call the training method "Fallback".

What is different than other popular training systems:

- cycle length: 6 weeks, which is short.

- periodization: 2 weeks strength - 2 weeks distance - 2 weeks speed. (I call distance what others call aerobics).

- consistency: nobody has this concept in the training plan, perhaps just mentally. In the "Fallback" system, the consistency is measured. The variation of time or distance along a week is what we call consistency. After looking at several running logs, I found that the optimal variation in a week is 20%. This math cannot be done in mind, but on a computer program or on the paper. (in statistics is known as coefficient of variation).

- bipolar run measurement: on base runs (which is the dominant type of running) the runner should focus on reaching the time goal. However, if he has a good day and runs faster, he should stop when the distance goal is achieved. This way, he has the freedom to take it easy when tired and still have benefits from the run, and neither be stopped from progress if his fitness level is increased.

Compared with other training systems, I call the 6 weeks cycle a "spiral" rather a pyramid or funnel.

Is because what you do today will be ready to use in about two weeks. Then you will do your training at a higher quality just because of what you did today.

For example, if you do slow run on the hills today, in two weeks you will do hill sprints. And in four weeks you will do intervals.

Then the 6 weeks cycle starts over and the spiral grows.

sloinnorcal wrote:

This is stupid.

800s should not be the centerpiece of your running. They are too short for speed-endurance or race-pace training and too long for a speed session.

Wrong.

800s or 1000s are at 3k-5k pace are great for VO2 and therefore important for any event, but ESPECIALLY 5k training.

sounds to me like you need to do some running at paces that are faster than your goal 5k pace. This will help your legs feel more relaxed and in control when you have to hold 5:45 pace for 3 miles straight.

If that sounds like it might be your problem, here are a couple of workouts you can try

easy run, then 4-6x100 @17-19 seconds (full recovery)

easy run, then 4x200 @39-40 (full recovery)

8-10x400 @5k pace minus 2-3 seconds (rest 60-90sec)

you could also really benefit from taking your standard 6x800 workout and turning it into 4x800 at a faster pace, and take an extra minute or 2 of rest between each one.

Thanks this sounds a lot easier. Ive only missed sub 18 by 10 secs so I'm getting there. Was thinking of trying 3x1600 this week but maybe I'll try faster and shorter. What do u do on other days. I usually do one speed day one long day one tempo day if I feel like it. Usually run 6 days a week.

Rocketman17 wrote:

Thanks this sounds a lot easier. Ive only missed sub 18 by 10 secs so I'm getting there. Was thinking of trying 3x1600 this week but maybe I'll try faster and shorter. What do u do on other days. I usually do one speed day one long day one tempo day if I feel like it. Usually run 6 days a week.

You're right, you are close. Keep doing what you are doing for the most part, but make that tempo run something you hit weekly, not 'if you feel like it.'

Then maybe alternate your intervals each week. So one week shorter and faster (300 to 800), and then next week longer (1k+). I'm sure there are more scientific ways to do it to get more periodization and specification, or whatever. But this way you'll regularly get practice at all the useful paces for 5k.

Oh, and what another poster said. Read Magill's 5K Puzzle program. It's good.

To answer your two questions:

distance - I don't know.

pace - I don't know.

55 years old. I run strictly by time. Last four weeks were

7 hr

5 hr 34 min (fallback)

8 hr 28 min

7 hr 30 min (missed a run due to injury)

My last 5K was a max effort at 20:26. PB from 2012 was also a max effort at 19:40.

Now some followup questions for you:

Do you charge for these plans?

How many of your 6-week cycles would typically be needed for a dedicated runner to improve by 2 min in the 5K?

Alan Bennet wrote:

To answer your two questions:

distance - I don't know.

pace - I don't know.

55 years old. I run strictly by time. Last four weeks were

7 hr

5 hr 34 min (fallback)

8 hr 28 min

7 hr 30 min (missed a run due to injury)

My last 5K was a max effort at 20:26. PB from 2012 was also a max effort at 19:40.

Now some followup questions for you:

Do you charge for these plans?

How many of your 6-week cycles would typically be needed for a dedicated runner to improve by 2 min in the 5K?

I'm not charging anything for the plans.

But who wants more than that, like nutrition, week to week planning (not 6 weeks from the start) - that's different.

I have a page for this purpose:

For a 37 yo, two 6-week cycles were enough to jump from 20 to sub 18.

At 55, is a different story. But a single cycle may be enough to bring you back to your 2012 PB. Of course, it depends on how much you maximized your potential in your training.

I'll come back with a plan later.