Correct effort for aerobic base building......Need some help

14 min/mile is not running. That´s a brisk walk.

Guys Relax. Remember don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. HRM and GPS watches are tools, and they shouldn't be used as a crutch or a governor all the time. Perceived effort can be an effective monitor as well, not scientific but effective none the less. Remember the Cavalier attitude... All things in moderation. Mix in the speed work in small amounts, and most important don't burn out. Just listen to your body, we don't recover like we used to. Avoid injury at all cost. If speed is important to your overall goals, Maff alone will not get you there.

Old wrestler wrote:

Guys Relax. Remember don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. HRM and GPS watches are tools, and they shouldn't be used as a crutch or a governor all the time. Perceived effort can be an effective monitor as well, not scientific but effective none the less. Remember the Cavalier attitude... All things in moderation. Mix in the speed work in small amounts, and most important don't burn out. Just listen to your body, we don't recover like we used to. Avoid injury at all cost. If speed is important to your overall goals, Maff alone will not get you there.

Well said. I am personally a fan of using HR for the vast majority of my runs. But even then, it is still just one guide among many. Don't worship the HR and its feedback, but don't wholly discredit it, either.

I agree....When I'm really slow, it just gets boring...I use my HRM as a guide, but I think going by effort is more accurate. Most of the time, my HR is in line with my effort, but later in the run, like mile 3 and on up, my HR creeps up but my breathing is fine.

I also find that running slow is very difficult in the fact that it's hard to run with a nice fluid stride...I'm sure ( well, hoping anyway ) that when the cooler temps come, it'll be easier.

Thanks for your comment

Never Quit

Yep, that's exactly right......I'm in that twilight zone: too slow to run, too fast to walk.....It totally sucks.

Couldn't have said it better!....I haven't been doing any speed work, mainly because I've read that will interrupt your base building conditioning....However, more and more people are saying to do a little of it. Maff says not to do ANY speed work. I'd sure like to see some objective data to support that claim. Well, today I did hot and humid 5. I can feel myself getting better, but there's still a long way to go....Have only been doing this for about 5 weeks. Tomorrow is our bike ride...That's a 3 hour ride and that's not very challenging, I guess you could call it "active rest"...........So on Sunday I'll do a little speed work.

Thanks for your comment

Never Quit

That's what makes this so interesting.....There isn't a silver bullet. Whatever works for YOU is the best.......Trying to find what's best is the challenging part.

Thanks

Never Quit

neverquit wrote:

Most of the time, my HR is in line with my effort, but later in the run, like mile 3 and on up, my HR creeps up but my breathing is fine.

Never Quit

This kind of struck me as interesting. If you regularly see your HR climbing pretty high after 3 miles, there might be something wrong with your training. Continually pushing through this could possibly even hinder your improvement (there are, of course, a ton of variables in play).

Have you considered running 5-6 days a week, but keeping your runs closer to 3 miles or just over? This would put you in a similar range to what it sounds like you are getting now (16 to 18 miles a week?)

Then maybe one day a week you work to push the mileage out little by little, with keeping the effort (and HR) similar.

Just some thoughts.

notsure wrote:

neverquit wrote:

Most of the time, my HR is in line with my effort, but later in the run, like mile 3 and on up, my HR creeps up but my breathing is fine.

Never Quit

This kind of struck me as interesting. If you regularly see your HR climbing pretty high after 3 miles, there might be something wrong with your training. Continually pushing through this could possibly even hinder your improvement (there are, of course, a ton of variables in play).

Have you considered running 5-6 days a week, but keeping your runs closer to 3 miles or just over? This would put you in a similar range to what it sounds like you are getting now (16 to 18 miles a week?)

Then maybe one day a week you work to push the mileage out little by little, with keeping the effort (and HR) similar.

Just some thoughts.

I previously commented about running in the 135-145 range but after hearing other comments I agree that's only for the first 80% of the run. In the last bit i drift upward, but it's more like after mile 6.

I'm not saying I do that all the time. Now that I'm feeling a bit more fit some of those medium 6 mile runs are progressions and I'm out of that HR range by mile 3.

To the guy that gets bored running slowly - I do get it, but I try to think of the run as training the brain to handle the boredom. Can I train myself to get in the zone? It's tough.

neverquit wrote:

Couldn't have said it better!....I haven't been doing any speed work, mainly because I've read that will interrupt your base building conditioning....However, more and more people are saying to do a little of it. Maff says not to do ANY speed work. I'd sure like to see some objective data to support that claim. Well, today I did hot and humid 5. I can feel myself getting better, but there's still a long way to go....Have only been doing this for about 5 weeks. Tomorrow is our bike ride...That's a 3 hour ride and that's not very challenging, I guess you could call it "active rest"...........So on Sunday I'll do a little speed work.

Thanks for your comment

Never Quit

It's too hot and humid in Arkansas in July for proper endurance training isn't it? You surely know that? But perfect weather for speed work.

Does Maffetone know any fast distance runners who can't run fast during base phase? No he doesn't, there is no such thing. Ignore Maffeton. Anyone who gives stupid advice about heart rate like he does is a fool. Your own numbers prove that.

I'd like to know what a "...nice fluid stride" feels like anymore. I'm 68 and I'm not so sure that nice & fluid is something those of us as these ages can achieve. On a sunny day when I'm out "running"...and I can see my shadow, it looks like I'm being chased down by Quasimodo! Ha!

Hey, Thanks!...That's something to consider. The reason I go longer is I would think if you're base building, a few longer runs would be better than several shorter runs.

Thanks for your ideas

Never Quit

Yes it IS!....It's hot and humid, that's one reason I'm running so slow to keep my breathing to "short phrases" and my HR lower.

Ah, what you say makes sense, and I was wondering if there is in fact any data to support the "no speed work" claim.....The key word being FACT and no opinion.

Thanks

Never Quit

I'm with ya!.....I see the younger set running, not even breathing hard and actually having fun!

Yeah, I'm working on my gait, just to try and keep it where it was.....It's tough, very tough.

I don't feel so bad knowing there's others out there!

Thanks

Never Quit

neverquit wrote:

Yes it IS!....It's hot and humid, that's one reason I'm running so slow to keep my breathing to "short phrases" and my HR lower.

Ah, what you say makes sense, and I was wondering if there is in fact any data to support the "no speed work" claim.....The key word being FACT and no opinion.

Thanks

Never Quit

I would rely more on anecdotal evidence for training rather than sports science to answer this question, since the collective evidence and advice of countless millions of runners over the 100 plus years is far more reliable than a few lab tests with questionable conclusions.

What the science does show as fact is that your fast twitch fibers can grow or shrink with usage due to the amount and type of the contractile protein, myosin, collectively known as myosin expression. With more speed/power work, there is an increase in myosin expression which increase muslce bulk, and with more endurance work there is a decrease.

This change in muslce mass is more noticeable in sprinters, who can gain or lose several pounds depending on the types of training they do.

However these changes in muscle mass don't affect your oxygen uptake, although they do affect the measurement of oxygen uptake relative to body weight.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that some speed work is essential for all types of runners, since your race pace in a distance race is a percentage of your maximum speed, it makes sense to have a good balance of speed and endurance at all times during training.

Do you have any races planned?