USADA's deposition of Dr. Brown just the latest saga in AlSal's long history of endocrine manipulation

"Nelson had a major altercation with Salazar"

To you the above quote from the article implies Salazar was "nice" to Nelson.

BTW, a freshman is not a talented rookie, especially when the freshman dared to outkick Senior Lord Salazar.

Zat0pek wrote:

First, we're not talking about SSRIs, which you've latched on to in what appears to be an attempt to deflect attention away from what we ARE talking about, which is phony diagnoses of hypothyroidism which are then treated with levothyroxine (and who knows what else), not SSRIs.

Thanks for the clarification.

I read the quote from Salazar mentioning Prozac and pretty much stopped there.

What can you tell us about time to exhaustion beneftis of levothyroxine and other kinds of "thyroid" meds? I have no practical biology/chemistry.

BTW, it's the very typical doping story flow where one thing is introduced that has some research that shows no benefits, yet somehow, some way, the big-budget program gets world-beating results. All legally of course.

Zat0pek wrote:

But I do have a hypothesis, theory, speculation, hunch, curiosity, whatever you want to call it, that makes all the pieces fit together: Brown designs untestable substances like BALCO did and supplies the recipe to Nike. Everybody focuses on Nike's lab for test purposes, but what if it had a manufacturing purpose as well? Nike's medical lab isn't available to the public. It's a private, in-house lab where they control all aspects of it. It would make a lot of sense to take Brown's recipe and manufacture the actual substances at Nike's in-house lab where they can control everything outside the normal channels of medical certification and monitoring.

Do you have any evidence Brown does this? Or that he is even capable of doing this?

Maybe, but maybe not wrote:

Zat0pek wrote:

But I do have a hypothesis, theory, speculation, hunch, curiosity, whatever you want to call it, that makes all the pieces fit together: Brown designs untestable substances like BALCO did and supplies the recipe to Nike. Everybody focuses on Nike's lab for test purposes, but what if it had a manufacturing purpose as well? Nike's medical lab isn't available to the public. It's a private, in-house lab where they control all aspects of it. It would make a lot of sense to take Brown's recipe and manufacture the actual substances at Nike's in-house lab where they can control everything outside the normal channels of medical certification and monitoring.

Do you have any evidence Brown does this? Or that he is even capable of doing this?

Not Brown, those with special access to the private lab. The more layers that are created the more difficult for the USADA to put all the pieces together. Standard procedure for those operating in stealth mode.

Emmett Brown wrote:

Not Brown, those with special access to the private lab. The more layers that are created the more difficult for the USADA to put all the pieces together. Standard procedure for those operating in stealth mode.

So you think Zat is wrong? He said "Brown designs untestable substances like BALCO did and supplies the recipe to Nike."

I asked for evidence because there's not a lot of detail about Brown's training or practice online. The little I've seen makes me skeptical of the claim that he's figuring out how to make drugs that can't be detected. He seems to be a full-time alternative/celebrity clinician, not a lab-rat who is busy creating recipes for designer PEDS.

Since this is an impression based on appearances, I was hoping for something a bit more solid. I guess not.

I just want some evidence, man wrote:

Emmett Brown wrote:

Not Brown, those with special access to the private lab. The more layers that are created the more difficult for the USADA to put all the pieces together. Standard procedure for those operating in stealth mode.

So you think Zat is wrong? He said "Brown designs untestable substances like BALCO did and supplies the recipe to Nike."

I asked for evidence because there's not a lot of detail about Brown's training or practice online. The little I've seen makes me skeptical of the claim that he's figuring out how to make drugs that can't be detected. He seems to be a full-time alternative/celebrity clinician, not a lab-rat who is busy creating recipes for designer PEDS.

Since this is an impression based on appearances, I was hoping for something a bit more solid. I guess not.

Victor Conte had far less training than Brown and high school dropouts can figure out how to make methamphetamine in their trailer parks. It doesn't always take a ton of knowledge, it just takes the right knowledge.

Like I said, it's nothing more than a hypothesis based on known information.

Zat0pek wrote:

Victor Conte had far less training than Brown and high school dropouts can figure out how to make methamphetamine in their trailer parks. It doesn't always take a ton of knowledge, it just takes the right knowledge.

Like I said, it's nothing more than a hypothesis based on known information.

1) Conte didn't do the chemistry. Patrick Arnold did the chemistry. Arnold was a chemistry major. He had a lab job, and took advanced classes in organic synthesis after graduation. The Department of Justice called him "The Chemist Who Created "The Clear.""

2) Dropouts who make meth use recipes. That's manufacturing, not R&D. As one of the characters on Breaking Bad says, "He’s called a cook, because everything comes down to following a recipe.”

PS Tim Ferriss (the Four Hour Workweek guy) interviewed Patrick Arnold a couple of months ago. The interview, called "The World's Most Famous Performance Enhancement Chemist," is online:

I think the most suspicious thing is that track and field athletes were flying around the country to go to one endocrinologist.

The other thing - and I find this fascinating - is that the people who blew this AlSal story up were going to the same damn doctor.

It is really, really hard not to find someone a hypocrite here. Several of these people have had career resurgences due to publicity from being whistleblower types.

There needs to be a book about this some day.

Brown's an MD. If he can't figure it out himself, he has access to people who can.

My theory would satisfy Occam's Razor. Ask yourself what the simplest explanation is for a shoe company with it's own medical lab, an endocrinologist as a paid consultant, and said doctor not cooperating with USADA despite having been given releases by numerous patients/athletes to do so?

All interesting comments. I understand how some of the arrows point to the Nike lab, but as a corporate officer myself, there's no way in the world Mark Parker and the senior leadership at Nike are going to risk their multi-million per year jobs, tens of millions in stock options, company reputation, potential lawsuits from investors, maybe even jail time if FDA and controlled substance laws are being broken, etc etc etc just so Galen Rupp can win a gold medal at the Olympics. Far too much risk for something which will sell a minimal number of shoes. And all it takes is one disgruntled lab tech to start talking.

Now if you said AlSal had some private lab he was working with off Nike property, I could believe nefarious things might be happening.

Bingo! Well done.

STheriot wrote:

All interesting comments. I understand how some of the arrows point to the Nike lab, but as a corporate officer myself, there's no way in the world Mark Parker and the senior leadership at Nike are going to risk their multi-million per year jobs, tens of millions in stock options, company reputation, potential lawsuits from investors, maybe even jail time if FDA and controlled substance laws are being broken, etc etc etc just so Galen Rupp can win a gold medal at the Olympics. Far too much risk for something which will sell a minimal number of shoes. And all it takes is one disgruntled lab tech to start talking.

Now if you said AlSal had some private lab he was working with off Nike property, I could believe nefarious things might be happening.

Bingo again!

The underground lab where nefarious things MIGHT be happening is located underground at a secret facility in Los Alamos, N.M. where Alberto is working with non-Kenyan 'elite' ET doctors and chemists LIVING AND TRAINING AT HIGH ALTITUDE.

They make magic potions for Alberto to help with his 'roid rage' condition which had an exacerbation at the 2014 US Indoor Championships.

OK?

STheriot wrote:

All interesting comments. I understand how some of the arrows point to the Nike lab, but as a corporate officer myself, there's no way in the world Mark Parker and the senior leadership at Nike are going to risk their multi-million per year jobs, tens of millions in stock options, company reputation, potential lawsuits from investors, maybe even jail time if FDA and controlled substance laws are being broken, etc etc etc just so Galen Rupp can win a gold medal at the Olympics. Far too much risk for something which will sell a minimal number of shoes. And all it takes is one disgruntled lab tech to start talking.

Now if you said AlSal had some private lab he was working with off Nike property, I could believe nefarious things might be happening.

LOL ... I worked at an international company with 200,000 engineers, and top-secret secure labs in many locations. At the location I worked the most popular on-site lab experiment was mixing machine soda with alcohol containing chemicals. Of course, that doing your own chemistry was strictly forbidden by management.

STheriot wrote:

All interesting comments. I understand how some of the arrows point to the Nike lab, but as a corporate officer myself, there's no way in the world Mark Parker and the senior leadership at Nike are going to risk their multi-million per year jobs, tens of millions in stock options, company reputation, potential lawsuits from investors, maybe even jail time if FDA and controlled substance laws are being broken, etc etc etc just so Galen Rupp can win a gold medal at the Olympics. Far too much risk for something which will sell a minimal number of shoes. And all it takes is one disgruntled lab tech to start talking.

Now if you said AlSal had some private lab he was working with off Nike property, I could believe nefarious things might be happening.

Riiiggghtttt.... Thus, corporations never break the law!

Of all the corporate -erm - malfeasance - over the last decades, how many corporate officers have done time?

That's what I thought.

Yes, because nobody in a C-level position would ever deliberately insulate themselves or overpay someone a rung or two down the ladder with the tacit understanding that they'd take the fall to protect the boss if anything ever went down.

There have been plenty of C-level crooks risking their careers and wealth trying to dramatically increase their own wealth and power...personal greed is the common motivator. I see no significant benefit to Nike, even less so to Parker, from Rupp / Salazar medaling in the Olympics....and only a sh!tstorm of epic proportions for him personally and the company if it turns out to be true.

I know there is a lot of well deserved anti-Nike sentiment on here but those guys are smarter than to have an illegal lab operating at corp HQ not too many yards away from the CEO's office. I'll gladly eat crow if I turn out to be wrong.

There is surely more to the story than thyroid medications...

I don't even see why/how USADA would have any jurisdiction over thyroid.

STheriot wrote:

There have been plenty of C-level crooks risking their careers and wealth trying to dramatically increase their own wealth and power...personal greed is the common motivator. I see no significant benefit to Nike, even less so to Parker, from Rupp / Salazar medaling in the Olympics....and only a sh!tstorm of epic proportions for him personally and the company if it turns out to be true.

I know there is a lot of well deserved anti-Nike sentiment on here but those guys are smarter than to have an illegal lab operating at corp HQ not too many yards away from the CEO's office. I'll gladly eat crow if I turn out to be wrong.

Look, here is how it works to protect the "unknowing" boss.

Boss provides the lab. Employees learn what they need to to make their own stuff. The employees make what they want--likely buy their own ingredients-- and make sure evidence that did something on their own is eliminated. The boss is in the clear because they don't bother to ask what happens in the lab.

Yup, but I'd add that employees bury the expense for the ingredients in with the paper clips or something. Or they give Dr. Brown a pay hike equivalent to the cost of the ingredients which he ships to the employees homes and they take it to work, in which case Brown would not want USADA poking around.