800 m training

Please e-mail me the article.

G Towne wrote:

Ryan, When you ran 1:47 weren't you running more miles than you did in the years following?

I was just going to mention something about Chico...

Perhaps Locklin could go ask someone who writes articles for such journals, one Dr. Peter G. Snell who has a 1:44.3 (grass) 800m to his credit, several WRs and Oly Golds as well.

I'm a hs 800 runner and a converted 400 guy just like Ryan.

I think that mileage does help, I busted my ass this summer putting in the miles just to get ready for this season. I've never run 50 for the 4 but this year I'm looking to do that and 1:54ish for the 8. But I've noticed the change in my body my legs are stronger and the drive is powerful in my stride I'm faster now then I've ever been just off of running miles and miles. Oh ya and I don't know how many of you have seen ryan but don't piss him off cause he'll tear you a new one. And ryan goodluck with training and I'll see you at twilight.

I agree building base is important, but high miles are excessive. Excuse the bad spelling

Only if you take that last thread as a threat.

Actually I ran my highest miles my last summer of collegiate running for Chico State. That summer (2001) I touched 70 miles a week. There was tons of benefit... I have had the same results focusing on fast twitch recruitment and over loading improving cardiac out put. My body handles heavier track workouts when the time calls and my injuries have been lessened. I think it has really kept me in the game.

I am not arguing the effectiveness of high mileage, just stating that power training can be just as effective.

The 1500/800 guy = higher mileage (75-100 mpw)

Pure 800 = moderate mileage (50-65 mpw)

800/400 = light mileage (35 - 45 mpw)

from the last 4 outdoor seasons, what were your season bests?

I'm sure that, being such a student of the sport, you have already read this, but I just wanted to post it here for you to look at it again, and maybe reconsider some of your previous claims. This from Renato Canova, coach of several world-class (i.e. <1:45) 800m runners (I'm sure what his personal PR is):

I want to write an experience that we had in Italy in 1990. At that time, we had a problem with 800m runners, having nobody able running under 1:46. There was a good group of very young athletes, born in '69-70 (Benvenuti, D'Urso, Giocondi, Bonamici, Chiavarini and some other less strong) that we wanted to follow for solving the problem.

In December 1989, we tested all the athletes (using a very simple Conconi-test) for detecting their AnT, after one month of long run, not very fast. Here are the data :

D'Urso 20,2 km/h (2'58" / km)

Benvenuti 19,1 km/h (3'08" / km)

Soffietto 18,8 km/h (3'11" / km)

Giocondi 18,8 km/h (3'11" / km)

Chiavarini 17,7 km/h (3'23" / km)

Bonamici 17,5 km/h (3'26" / km)

The athletes were assembled together in Turin (were we had an indoor track always open) from December for preparing their indoor season.

After some work non yet very fast (for example, 10x200m in 28", or 10x500 in 1'18" rec. 2'/3' depending on the athlete), they went for the first competition (10th of January) with split every 200m. The result was :

1) Benvenuti 1:51.2 (28.8 / 56.8 / 1:24.2 + 27.0)

2) Bonamici 1:51.6 (29.0 / 57.4 / 1:24.6 + 27.0)

3) Chiavarini 1:52.2 (28.5 / 56.2 / 1:23.7 + 28.5)

4) Soffietto 1:52.6 (28.7 / 56.6 / 1.24.0 + 28.6)

D'Urso and Giocondi didn't compete.

The athlete, during the next period, went for a training based on speed and lactic workouts, reducing long run very much (also for the bad conditions of weather, often snowing and under 0°).

Particularly Andrea Bonamici was able to improve very much in speed. One his workout, for instead, was 3 sets of 4x200m recovering 45" (5 min among the sets) in about 24"5/24", with the last 200m in 23"7.

They competed some time (2-3 times) in national races, improving only a little, but nobody was able running under 1:51.0.

After 40 days (20th of February) they went for Italian Championships, for qualifying European Championships.

The race was fast, as we had a rabbit pushing the pace in 25.8 / 52.4 / 1:18.8. All the athletes were destroyed, and Benvenuti won in 1:50.9 (last 200m in 31.2, because he was n. 3 after 600m !).

We were not able to understand soon what could have happened during the period of training. Few days later, we went with all the group in Tirrenia for beginning the preparation for the outdoor season. We tested another time the athletes using the same system (Conconi-test), and we found the following values :

D'Urso (non training with the group because he did't compete in any indoor race) 20.6 km/h (2'55" / km)

Giocondi (like D'Urso) 19.4 km/h (3'06" / km)

Benvenuti 18.1 km/h (3'19" / km)

Soffietto 17.7 km/h (3'23" / km)

Chiavarini 16.8 km/h (3'34" / km)

Bonamici 16.3 km/h (3'41" / km)

So, the results regarding AnT for the athletes, after 3 months of training, was the following :

Group A : Athletes NON USING very much LACTIC TRAINING :

D'Urso + 2 % (from 2:58 to 2:55)

Giocondi + 3 % (from 3:11 to 3:06)

Group B : Athletes using mainly ANAEROBIC WORKOUTS :

Benvenuti - 6 % (from 3:08 to 3:19)

Soffietto - 6 % (from 3:11 to 3:23)

Chiavarini - 5 % (from 3:23 to 3:34)

Bonamici - 7 % (from 3:26 to 3:41)

More the athletes used speed endurance at high level, with short recovery, WITHOUT HAVING ANY AEROBIC BASE, more they lost Aerobic Power, going into anaerobic system only for moderate speed.

More the athletes used workouts for increasing their Aerobic Power, more were able to be fast at the end of a very hard work.

Thru this experience we changed our systems, giving more importance to the aerobic basic work (not only long run, but long intervals on track and short intervals not very fast, reducing recovery times).

Thru this system, in 3 years we had Benvenuti 5th in OG '92 able running 1:43.92, and then to win European Ch. '94 ; D'Urso silver medal in WCh '93, able running 1:43.95 ; Giocondi 7th in WCh '95 and able running 1:44.85 ; and also Chiavarini ran 1:45.02, while Soffietto and Bonamici disappeared. The same school was used with Longo.

So, for us, the importance of having a high level of AnT (due to mythocondrial situation) is a fact now well known, and who was in our group at that time (like Gianni Ghidini, coach of Andrea Benvenuti) continues to use these systems also with kenyans like Bungei (1:42.34), Yiampoy (1:42.91), Kimwetich (1:43.03), Mutua (1:43.33) and many others, with different levels of speed."

Ryan, Are you working with a coach at this point or training on your own?

i ran 1.48 as a 20 yr old ( 2yrs ago) and this year i am far fitter aerobically than i was in feb then. I am unsure as how my specific 800m training is compared to then as i have done very little and don't write my training down. I guess it is better due to natural progression.

however if i don't get injured and can't turn this incresed aerobic capabilites ( im talking about 31.00 10k and 14.30 5k shape) into a huge jump forward in the 800m this year then i will seriously consider changing my philosphy on how i need to train in the winter. and may go for the more 800m specific weight training, more speed approach year round.

so consider me a guinea pig in this debate and i will write back in september

andre bucher, one of the worlds best, ran a 14:06 5k and ran a 9:09 steeple when he was 19 before the 800m. hows that for aerobic development?

In the last "running" conversation I had with Arthur Lydiard, he said that he thought the weakest WR on the books was the 800. He said that with all the guys in the world capable of running 45 seconds for 400 meters, you'd think that at least one of them would be able to go out in 50 seconds, finish with another 50 and have a 1:40 final time. But doing that, in his opinion, would require that the 45 second guy maximize his aerobic development and it seems that 800 meter specialists are more and more thinking they should train on lots of speedwork.

One other point on this; Peter Snell has held the New Zealand 800 meter record for over 40 years. There have been plenty of fast, young, Kiwis who've been talked up as the guy who'll finally get the record. But few, if any of them, from what I've read, ever did the sort of training Snell did. So rather than imitate Snell's training, they lionize him and hold him up as somoeone with almost godlike ability and use that to explain why he's still got the record.

Sorry, but Lydiard is wrong.

There are a lot of 45" runners because there are a lot of talented sprinters doing a lot of effecient sprint and speed endurance work.

To train them aerobically would lower their 400m speed down to about 46"-46"5, allowing for a 1'41"-1'42" time just like the best 800 meter runners.

Why can't runners run 45s and do lots of aerobic work? Mutua and Bungei seem to have no problem doing both.

Honest Truth wrote:

Sorry, but Lydiard is wrong.

There are a lot of 45" runners because there are a lot of talented sprinters doing a lot of effecient sprint and speed endurance work.

To train them aerobically would lower their 400m speed down to about 46"-46"5, allowing for a 1'41"-1'42" time just like the best 800 meter runners.

Well. Yes, he was wrong so often that I imagine he would have been here. Just blind luck with Snell.

I almost agree with you.

Look at genetic freaks such as Xavier Carter that can run sub 46 sec quarters without any specific training at all. Every year the kid came straight out of basketball season and after a week of "practice" was throwing down sub 21s and sub 46s.

There has to be someone out there with the ability to run low 46 off hardly any SPECIFIC training that could become properly trained aerobically and bust low 1:40.

These are excellent threads and I am glad some runners have actually put some thought into this. Lydiard wasn't wrong, becuae his boy Snell kikced ass, but probably didn't have to train like a marathoner to get those results.

I think but don't qoute me there are more runners in the world running maybe under 146 than there ever has been before. I look at the world lists and its pretty incredible the amount sub 146 guys that exist. My assumption is that the importance of speed and power has come avail to many coaches and athletes who trained conventially have implemented some power training.