Sometimes I feel depressed about my lack of "talent"

Your are definitely correct, my 10k is weakest. My 39:41 was more or less a tempo run during a training buildup. I actually likely split a faster 10K at the end of my 1:24.

I do have a day job, as a teacher... and also have a two year old at home. That has made training even harder. Lots of illness go around the house. It is a rare month when I can put up 4 consecutive weeks of training without coming down with something. But I don't blame that. Even when I had summers alone to myself to devote to nothing but training, rest, massage, etc. 40 mpw for me was a rare, rare week. The amount of time and effort it took me to work up to 40 mpw felt like climbing Everest.

Read the second half of the Sports Gene if you still have it. It ends on a higher note.

Your travel schedule would be tough. I'd be sick all. the. time.

I am a believer that assuming an individual is highly motivated, they tend to (with a blend of conscious decision and unconscious thought) gravitate towards the highest level of training they have success with. I've seen with a lot of folks that they tend to self-select towards what works for them, assuming they aren't just lazy. In a way, I think this is a success of the brain-body overtraining mechanism. Given enough years and training cycles, people tend to figure out what works for them and what ends up just being too much.

test2 wrote:

a couple thoughts:

Your 10k time is better than your half which is better than your marathon. The general prescription for that is more volume but build gradually.

How's your speed? With your 10k I'd expect you to be able to crack 30sec for an all-out 200m. If you've been neglecting speed work and can't get near that, it'd be worth adding in a workout every other week to work on sprint speed: short reps with long rest. I'd start with reps no longer than 200m and shorten them as you get better at sprinting, even 50m is enough if you can get up to speed quickly.

Yes I definitely convert very poorly.

Good question about speed...and I don't know the answer. As an example I did 3 x 1M @ 6:15 w/ 1' Rest + 6 x 200 R (200 jog in between) and averaged about 5:20 pace.

Not helpful. 30 seconds is 4:10 pace. I don't think I can do that. I think an all out sprint for me would be about 4:30 pace (34 seconds for 200). It's REALLY REALLY difficult for me to run sub 5:00 pace, i.e. mechanically body has no idea what to do. I never raced anything shorter than 5k.

Speed is good, but wouldn't sprinting (i.e. be on the toes) be a completely different animal?

I like Daniel's 200 reps or even strides during easy runs. It's new to me, I first read his book earlier this year. Prior to that my only speed workouts were either occasional intervals (400/800) or progressive tempos at the end of which I was all out (6:00 pace).

Still have it and will read the second half! It's so well-researched. Good luck with the 2-year old and accompanying illnesses! It probably will get better soon. You are right about the gravitation towards what is best (long term, not necessary for short improvements). For me that's 30-35 mpw with 3 balls out runs pretty much, and 4 easy and short days.

I got my 10k down from 1 hour 5 min to 38 minutes that way and my half from 1:46 to 1:26. it just doesn't work well for the marathon (I cramped so badly in the first, even worse in the second, and in the third had spasms in hamstrings which slowed me to 8-8:30 over the last 4 miles). To get over the cramps, I think mileage will be the only cure (I ate/drank properly, the electrolyte theory is bs)

I ran 3:50 with some cramps on 30 mpw, 3:40 with tons of cramps on 20-25 mpw and 3:16 with twinges on 40-45 mpw so unfortunately there might be truth to volume.

Good luck man! Keep going and do what you love.

You're 5'7 and 150lbs, which while isn't obese is still heavy for a competitive runner. I'm 2 inches shorter than you and I've gone down to as low as 105-110 (big hit with the ladies I know). I've run in the neighborhood of 1:15 for a half and 16 flat 5k on similar mileage as you.

Based on how heavy you are you're probably at least as naturally talented as I am. Just lose a few dozen pounds and the times will drop easy. Of course, you might not want to be that skinny, but if running fast is important to you then you gotta live with it.

Why don't you list a 5K PR?

I'm interested in your post, as I'm also interested in making the most of modest talent. I run a similar workout schedule with similar paces, but with a bit higher mileage (40-50 mpw; I'm about a decade older, and I run best on 6 days a week but can't run more than 2 workouts).

The reason I ask about the 5K is that it seems like you need some more variety in your training. Spending half a year on just mileage seems like a good idea (I might try that myself). So might spending half a year focusing on shorter distances. Getting a 5K time might also give you a useful guide to where your strengths are.

Chaim wrote:

You're 5'7 and 150lbs, which while isn't obese is still heavy for a competitive runner. I'm 2 inches shorter than you and I've gone down to as low as 105-110 (big hit with the ladies I know). I've run in the neighborhood of 1:15 for a half and 16 flat 5k on similar mileage as you.

Based on how heavy you are you're probably at least as naturally talented as I am. Just lose a few dozen pounds and the times will drop easy. Of course, you might not want to be that skinny, but if running fast is important to you then you gotta live with it.

I'm surprised this didn't come up earlier and it is probably right, but there is no way I can be even 120-125. I'm shooting for 140 this summer (where I was last year which pissed off my gf). At 140 I have a 6 pack and lots of ribs showing. I don't know how you guys do it! You are right about "if you want it, you gotta do it" since it is part of the deal. Elite marathoners aren't baywatch.

Let me shoot for 140 first. Then maybe 135 if physically possible. I want to be careful training and losing weight..

I ran my 3:16 marathon at 160 lbs exactly, and oddly my worst marathon at 142 lbs. I don't get it.

colder and wiser wrote:

Why don't you list a 5K PR?

I'm interested in your post, as I'm also interested in making the most of modest talent. I run a similar workout schedule with similar paces, but with a bit higher mileage (40-50 mpw; I'm about a decade older, and I run best on 6 days a week but can't run more than 2 workouts).

The reason I ask about the 5K is that it seems like you need some more variety in your training. Spending half a year on just mileage seems like a good idea (I might try that myself). So might spending half a year focusing on shorter distances. Getting a 5K time might also give you a useful guide to where your strengths are.

Because my 5K PR (officially 19:10) is worse than my 10K PR (38:00) :)

I split 18:45 en route to the 38:00.

So all out I think I must be in the 18:30-18:45 range. Also my 10k, Half and full are all on hilly courses so perhaps 18:25-18:30 on a flat course.

Good idea on periodization. Lots of useful info in this thread, thank you. To become a better runner, this is a good approach. For the time being, and since all I want first is to "convert' to longer distance, I may spend 6-8 weeks or more on mileage in early summer,

Question though: if one spends a great deal of time building mileage, doesn't that increase injury risk from a "repetitive" standpoint? i.e. always same motion/pace

Which is why I've always liked switching shoes (same model but different wear), surface, and workouts like progressive tempos which work a whole spectrum of biomechanics/range.

If 34s is a fast 200m for you, I'd say there is some low hanging fruit there. Without a lot of work, you may be able to speed that up by a few seconds and that should make every pace easier. The reasoning is that you just don't have very much speed in reserve right now. Since you are saying 34 sec is all out and 37.5 sec is really difficult (5min/mile pace), it follows that 40sec (5:20 mile is about equivalent to a 38min 10k) is probably harder than it needs to be and this is has a tangible effect on your track workouts.

So don't go nuts. A speed oriented workout here and there should be enough and I could imagine you dropping down toward 30sec pretty fast (a couple months). If it's the marathon you care about, diminishing returns will start to set in pretty fast after that. Oh, and these workouts can be really uncomfortable but at 33sec 200m pace you really aren't sprinting even if it feels like you are. Your body has just forgotten how to run fast. You have to remind it.

Thank you for your perspective. At age 34, you have plenty of time. I really mean this. I am 47, and I admit that I most certainly have gotten stressed about the effects of age. At 47, this is perhaps something to keep in mind, but one should avoid thinking too much about age, even as one nears 50. I run in a club, and there are at least three early 50s guys that I can think of that are solid runners, one of which ran a tad under 3:01 a few months ago (at age 51). So, I use him as my "barometer." I think: if he can do it, why can't I? I think he has more talent than I do, but he also has more years of running under his belt.

Enjoy your running, avoid injury, and you will be fine. If you get down, think of me saying: "I wish I were 34."

I'm 29, took running 2 years ago after being a 200lbs fat ass and smoking for 10 years. I'm 170lbs now and I've gotten my 5k down to 19:50. I hope to ever achieve times close to the ones you're getting. We all have different goals I guess.

Anon~ wrote:

I'm 29, took running 2 years ago after being a 200lbs fat ass and smoking for 10 years. I'm 170lbs now and I've gotten my 5k down to 19:50. I hope to ever achieve times close to the ones you're getting. We all have different goals I guess.

You're well on your way! At my max I was 187 and I did smoke too (1 pack a day, for 3 years).

2 years into running I too was down 30 lbs and broke 20 for the first time. I ran 42' 10k that year.

Keep going and who knows where your running will take you! Sorry for the lament. 8 years into it when progress slows down it becomes a bit harder to work towards goals!!

You want the truth, stop being such a whiny B word and feeling sorry for yourself.

You're fat and don't train that hard, that's why your times aren't what you want. Maybe you don't have elite talent, but you could be a lot faster. 150 is way overweight for a distance runner who is 5' 7". No wonder you get injured when you try to run more.

If you want to run as a hobby and for fun great keep doing what you're doing. If you're doing it to maximize your ability and run fast times then grow a pair and do the things you have to do to run fast.

TellMeHonestly wrote:

You're well on your way! At my max I was 187 and I did smoke too (1 pack a day, for 3 years).

2 years into running I too was down 30 lbs and broke 20 for the first time. I ran 42' 10k that year.

Keep going and who knows where your running will take you! Sorry for the lament. 8 years into it when progress slows down it becomes a bit harder to work towards goals!!

Yeah, I will keep trying no matter what. It would be easy to just relax and blame myself on the years I mistreated my body (which of course has some truth to it) but that's a defeatist mentality and I refuse to give up.

Keep it up. I hope you break the 3 hour mark soon.

Many thanks. Really glad I started that thread, and will bookmark. As you note "here and there" is the key. Rotating types of workouts every couple weeks seems to be a good idea. If one day I run an all out 200m I will post it back here, I am rather curious now too.

One small correction is that 38 flat 10k is 46 seconds per 200. But yeah I get the point, I need more "speed margin" as I am pretty maxed out at 5:20-5:30 already. I'd like to run a mile race at some point to test it out. Scares me much more than a half!

I'll be Honest wrote:

You want the truth, stop being such a whiny B word and feeling sorry for yourself.

You're fat and don't train that hard, that's why your times aren't what you want. Maybe you don't have elite talent, but you could be a lot faster. 150 is way overweight for a distance runner who is 5' 7". No wonder you get injured when you try to run more.

If you want to run as a hobby and for fun great keep doing what you're doing. If you're doing it to maximize your ability and run fast times then grow a pair and do the things you have to do to run fast.

I understand, but I did get lighter last year (141) and it wasn't all that awesome, i.e. translated into amazing times, and I did get hurt. That being said, being a whiny B doesn't help so I will try again. Goal is 135-140 and I am going to face some marital backlash (she calls me skinny already).

Appreciate the honesty! If you look at Daniel's tables times reductions are huge for small variations in weight, and I don't believe it, but in the spirit of maximizing ability I will try. Thank you.

Here lies a major problem for you. Let me put this simply for you. Fast distance runners are really skinny. Some of them were naturally bigger but thinned out by the running. You're wasting a lot of energy dragging excess weight around and it also probably contributes to your injury risk. You think the lowest you could be is 135, laughable. There's guys several inches taller than you below that.

Understood and makes sense.

Based on 17% Body Fat and 150 lbs my lean mass is 124.5 lbs which means 0% BF at 125lbs or 7% BF for 135.

To get to the lean marathoner weight I would need to lose a lot of lean mass too (muscle). Not saying that as an excuse...just I don't know how the f to get there and also train!!!

Will do my best.

It is true. I am 6.0 and at 143 I am soaking wet. No six pack or much arm/shoulder definition to be seen. Only my legs are very lean and quite defined. When I get to 135 I will be very lean overall, yet I'm 6 inches taller than the OP.

The OP can definitely lose a lot of weight. At this point it doesnt matter if it's fat or muscle.

So 1) lose weight then 2) build up easy mileage towards 60+ even with doubles if I need then 3) introduce some workouts (speed) and 4) 12 or so weeks of classic marathon training peaking at 70 and then 5) race?!