Sometimes I feel depressed about my lack of "talent"

your 10k PR is pretty good.

My half PR is 1:20 and marathon is 3:20, so I know what you mean. I'm a low mileage runner, which explains everything.

You need to say something about your training before blaming talent.

You're probably running your easy days too fast and your hard days too easy. Get consistent. At least 1 tempo a week, 1 long run and lots of easy mileage. Maybe start making it 2 workouts a week and a long run. Build a solid base with easish mileage and strides and get consistent with work outs. You should be able to build over that 60mpw and start hitting some respectable times.

training versus talent wrote:

your 10k PR is pretty good.

My half PR is 1:20 and marathon is 3:20, so I know what you mean. I'm a low mileage runner, which explains everything.

You need to say something about your training before blaming talent.

We're in the same boat I think. I'm stubborn and obsessed over breaking 3, but my body is not meant for long distance. The 38 flat 10k was done without specific 10k training and on a hilly course, while by comparison I try my heart out in the marathon

I could probably do much better at 5k/10k but want to train such that I transpose some of these results to the marathon. My HM and full M PRs are old (2013) while 10k is recent. I'm hoping to do better this year, and want to ramp up the training to peak at 60-70 mpw in next marathon training cycle.

3:16 was on 40-45 mpw with 2 weeks over 50.

1:20 is neat. I wouldn't be surprised if I get closer to 1:20 HM than 3:00 marathon...

MikeRoss BAA wrote:

You're probably running your easy days too fast and your hard days too easy. Get consistent. At least 1 tempo a week, 1 long run and lots of easy mileage. Maybe start making it 2 workouts a week and a long run. Build a solid base with easish mileage and strides and get consistent with work outs. You should be able to build over that 60mpw and start hitting some respectable times.

That's about what I do. I like 7 days schedule. Typical non-descript week when not training for anything particular:

- Monday Easy 3 or 4.5 @ 8:30

- Tue Some kind of speed workout e.g. 6 x 800 @ 5:50 (7.5-8 miles)

- Wed Easy 4.5 mi

- Thu Tempo (total 8 mi, T Pace about 6:15)

- Fri Easy 4.5 mi

- Sat Trail Run (8 mi with last two sub 7)

- Sun Long Tempo (e.g. 10 miles at 7:00)

Have had similar schedule for ages though, so perhaps that explains performance plateau. Up until 2013 I was destroying PRs.

Those are actually pretty good times for 35-40 MPW. An unfortunate truth about running is that you just have to put in miles. There are not any secret shortcuts or workouts to get around that.

Everyone is different, but for me I found around 50 to be a good base number, most of which I ran pretty slow. I'm a guy who likes to run fast, like 20x200 was a really fun workout for me, and 90 minutes slow was grueling. To get to 50 I just ran a fair amount, and slowed down. A couple times a week I'd run an easy 10-12 miles and didn't do much speed work. Once I got to the point of being able to run 90 minutes and feel like I'd gone for a long walk, I was ready to start really training.

To run a good marathon I had to up the miles and run lots of hour-long, controlled tempo runs and very little real hard intervals.

Dr. Smith wrote:

I'm a guy who likes to run fast, like 20x200 was a really fun workout for me, and 90 minutes slow was grueling.

This exactly. Thanks for the encouragements. I have run 3 marathons, yet anything > 10 miles still is a "long" run for me. Even in my buildup to the 3:16 my longest run was only 16, done twice, both at MP though (and I matched those MP runs to the seconds on race day).

I really need to ramp up some real mileage, and drop some of the faster stuff. I just can't imagine running 20 miles at 8:00-9:00 pace. One approach I like is the back to back longish runs, e.g. 12 miles on Sat including some tempo and 16 miles on Sunday.

But I get it. I should just run long and on singles, with some medium-long runs in the week.

Question 1: is it smart or dumb to lengthen w/u and c/d on workout days to add mileage? I typically do 2.5-3.5 w/u and 1,5-2 c/d but maybe should do more, as opposed to add reps.

Question 2: I'm fairly comfortable at 45 mpw now and shouldn't have too much trouble in the low 50 mpw. To get to 60-70 mpw, could I possibly just add doubles (e.g. 3 miles morning easy run) until I get used to the mileage, and later on drop them to just do singles at that level?

I'd like to get to 70. If I can do that with a long run of 18+ with some MP thrown in (e.g. last 3-6 miles @ 6:40), and 1 or 2 other workouts with some longer/slower intervals (e.g. 3 x 1.5 mi @ 6:15 or 2 x 3 mi @ 6:20-6:30) maybe I have a shot at sub 3 someday.

You could do with some more running every week.

Monday run a bit further, you can easily manage 5 or 6 miles.

Tuesday run a bit faster, ~2:55 for those reps is well within you based upon that 10k. try running them at faster than 5k pace so 2:45 really. Take more rest if you need it.

Wednesday again run a bit further.

Thursday looks alright.

Friday run further.

Saturday maybe you could run some kind of long intervals on your trails rather than yet another tempo run. Vary things up, do some 1 mile reps. Much of the same will just plateau you, the body needs new stimuli.

Sunday that long tempo is a bit pointless personally, running for slower for a longer time will give you more aerobic benefit and less negative stress; run that at 8:00min pace.

I think you have too many pointless tempos and not enough focus on quality sessions or enough volume. Your 'speed' session is too slow and easy, you probably take too little recovery. Your overall plan is fine but if you want to run a better marathon you have to train smart. Do more miles, you can run 10 miles at 7 minute pace, therefore you can run 6 miles instead of 4.5 at an easy pace the other days. Have 2 quality sessions a week, do one tempo if you like also and make your long run more relaxed with a focus on your form rather than the watch.

You and I are quite similar. I am a little lower mileage than you, but my post HS PR's are

39:41, 1:24, and 3:14. If you've never read 'The Sports Gene" by David Epstein, you should. Here is a post I made a few years back about trainability, talent, and my thoughts on it:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5458247

Here's what I would advise you to understand about Letsrun. It's a great place, but there is a huge subset of the community that just does not understand that you can't just "will" a body to become something it is not. Most of these people are the 100 mpw types who were born durable and highly trainable--more power to them. I have tried multiple times to become a high-mileage guy. It is the best way to get faster, no question.

My body breaks down every time. Nutrition, sleep, massage, strength training, it'll all be there... and I still just can't do it. Overtraining syndrome sets in. People will say "get more sleep... strength train... eat better..." etc. Just as most of the 100 mpw folks could hit the gym for the rest of the lives and never bench 300 lbs, I've accepted that I will never be a guy who can run high mileage.

Durability and improvability are variable, but the range of variability is set by your genetics. You and I are in the "pretty good" range of the spectrum. Go to any local 5k and you will find that 90% of the people there can't run as far, fast, or much as you can. Hanging out on these boards, though, you are mostly getting the voice of the top 10%, and even that is skewed towards the top 1-2%.

Keep training hard. Try to focus on what you can do. Sometimes that is a struggle for me, too.

Thanks for the taking the time to help. Very nice. The biggest new stimulus in that place would be more easy miles which I admit, I never do. For me, if a day is an easy day, it only means 30 to 40' to get "out of the door" and usually run these progressively, starting at 9:00, middle at 8:30, end at 7:30-8:00.

I will start lengthening them (as opposed to doubling).

For Tuesday I agree with you that to get better, I might need to do them faster (I do like 200s though, which I do at 5:15-5:20 pace).

M 5-6

T 7-10

W 5-6

T 8-10

F 5-6

S 8-12

Sun 12-20

Would give a range of 50 to 70 miles, which the low end being base and the top end being peak marathon week.

As a previous poster noted, maybe some longer mid week runs of 10-15 miles might be good too, in which case I would rearrange Tue/Wed, or just do easy med long run on one of these days in place of a workout.

Will vary my Sat trail run, maybe incorporate more hills.

On Sun I understand. Sometimes I even go faster than 7...so I will drop that, lengthen the run, start slower, and maybe end with a few MP miles something like 3-6 @ 6:40-7:00

That's Great! Thanks for posting!

Nice to find someone alike, indeed! I know this is the wrong forum (because most here are way faster and can't relate). I actually get injured more frequently when I spend more time on letsrun, probably because I want to do too much too soon after reading.

Funny you mention the Sports Gene. I have it. I read half, and then stopped because it made me a bit sad. You see, I know we're "pretty good" as you rightfully say, which is way slower than good, and not even close to real good.

I suppose you have a day job too, right? You mention nutrition, sleep, massage, strength training. I started paying attention to all (do yoga now, got stronger, lost weight) but as you note, it doesn't work immediately either. I fly over 100,000 miles for work. I crossed the Atlantic (US-Europe) 21 times last year. When that happens, I break down. I get the flu. I am rundown etc.

Keep up the good fight. There is a place for people like us! I just want, one time, to break 3. Then I will stop caring about times, and run for fun, and even try trail/ultras if I feel like it.

Thanks for chiming in!! Interesting that your HM PR is way better than your 10k (pretty much same pace)!

I didn't comment on durability etc. but you are correct. I just want to lie to myself to see if I can ever run even > 50 mpw consistently. In no calendar year have I even averaged over 40!

"The more I trained the more talent I found out I had"

Run more miles. Run twice a day then report back to us about your amazing progress. It's not lack of talent, it's lack of training.

Your welcome.

I broke 3 with a 39:18 10K PR running quite some distance (~100 kpw yearly average with bursts at ~ 140 kpw). Most kilometres easy (6 to 4:50/km) and one fifth in steady runs or long intervals (4:00 to 4: 35/km). So I'd say you could realize your lifetime goal quickly (6 months to 2 years) if you manage to increase volume without getting hurt, and organise your schedule properly (periodisation, etc.)

If you are not sure what to do, follow a "high volume" schedule like the Hansons' quite simple one (Pfitzinger or Daniels are probably harder to execute properly and benefit from).

Nice quote, thank you!

loqueelviento wrote:

I broke 3 with a 39:18 10K PR running quite some distance (~100 kpw yearly average with bursts at ~ 140 kpw). Most kilometres easy (6 to 4:50/km) and one fifth in steady runs or long intervals (4:00 to 4: 35/km). So I'd say you could realize your lifetime goal quickly (6 months to 2 years) if you manage to increase volume without getting hurt, and organise your schedule properly (periodisation, etc.)

If you are not sure what to do, follow a "high volume" schedule like the Hansons' quite simple one (Pfitzinger or Daniels are probably harder to execute properly and benefit from).

Thanks for the note --- the Hanson's training that you mention, is the the "Something of Substance" (SOS)?

I like it a lot and followed it loosely when I ran 3:16 but it caps at about 50 miles a week (and this is also why I only ran 16 miles long run, but at MP)

If you have a link or source for a higher program, I am a taker!

Periodization is something I should consider too --- I am a yearlong runner, formerly even did a running streak of > 400 days. Somehow I got less injured when running everyday, so that's what I do now.

I was getting hurt all the time running 3-5x a week. 7x I think keeps me from over doing it but may have also caused staleness.

My story is similar to yours--no running in h.s.or college, though I picked up running in my 40s. My half PR is exactly the same as yours, 1:26:10, and so I guess I stink, too. My marathon PR is decent (3:02), and it shows that I tend toward being an endurance guy rather than a speed guy--your 10k PR is better than mine. In any case, take what God has given you and use it wisely. If you are better at the shorter distances, then focus on those for a while. You have plenty of time. The marathon will come. It takes some "seasoning."

All the best to you.

outsiderunner wrote:

My story is similar to yours--no running in h.s.or college, though I picked up running in my 40s. My half PR is exactly the same as yours, 1:26:10, and so I guess I stink, too. My marathon PR is decent (3:02), and it shows that I tend toward being an endurance guy rather than a speed guy--your 10k PR is better than mine. In any case, take what God has given you and use it wisely. If you are better at the shorter distances, then focus on those for a while. You have plenty of time. The marathon will come. It takes some "seasoning."

All the best to you.

Your PR are far from "stinking", especially since you converted so well to the marathon! Congrats. Especially starting in your 40s, I am 34 now and getting stressed about effect of age.

+1 on being positive and happy to be where we already are. I'm sure a 2:40 guy feels the same way about sub 2:30s and I can't imagine what a 2:20 feels when he sees pro marathoners. It's that relativity that "stinks" not the actual times.

Best of luck to you and congrats on your Marathon PR. I read the thread you created on talking to non runners and definitely can relate, especially for us in the spectrum between "commoner" and "good"

If you guys get injured every time you increase your volume, you're probably trying to do too many things at the same time. If you try to increase your volume while also doing speedwork and tempos at the same time, you're bound to get injured. You need to focus on one or the other until your base is built, and your body is accustomed to volume. Try taking an extended time off of racing, like 6 months or a year, and just focus on very, very slowly and gradually increasing your mileage. No speedwork, no tempos, just grinding out base miles. Ignore your pace.

a couple thoughts:

Your 10k time is better than your half which is better than your marathon. The general prescription for that is more volume but build gradually.

How's your speed? With your 10k I'd expect you to be able to crack 30sec for an all-out 200m. If you've been neglecting speed work and can't get near that, it'd be worth adding in a workout every other week to work on sprint speed: short reps with long rest. I'd start with reps no longer than 200m and shorten them as you get better at sprinting, even 50m is enough if you can get up to speed quickly.