Unfortunately the Hungarian Revolution cut short Igoli's career as an influential coach. Lydiard is often misquoted because was around so long and written about frequently.
Is there nothing new under the sun when it comes to training distance runners?
Lydiard base, Coe for track season
Coe's advances were circuit training and the popularization of the tempo run.
However they did not count Seb Coe's warm up runs as part of his mileage. At least that is what I have read.
Steve Ovett is supposed to have run more than 100 miles per week. Seb Coe may have run less than that but I'm guessing it was similar to what Ovett ran for at least part of the year.
Good question Jed!
Tend to do a mixture here with a little aussie flavour thrown in with the complex system.
Trained with Cook for a year and had the chance to run with Abdi Bile (1500m World Champion 1987) and his system was very similar to Coe's but the issue was being able to stay injury free. Most people don't know that prior to Abdi winning the WC he was injured from December to March and didn't run at all.
Long hill repeats, progressive runs, alternations 30/40's and with added dynamic drills, bounding, and strength training made us all very fit. This works well when coaching juniors.
Training with 83 WC Deek his system was all about consistency. Every week was nearly the same. Monday/Friday recovery, Tuesday and Thursdays fast efforts with float recoveries, Wednesday progressive, Saturday hitting every hill hard over 10miles and then the tough long runs on Sunday over 18-22 miles of hills.
Nothing is new out there it is find what an athlete can tolerate and be able to come back the next day.
I think there is something in cross training as here in Australia triathlon are big. One 17 year old boy a few years ago ran 8:08 for 3k and he probably ran about 30 miles per week. Swimming and cycling are great tools for recovery and enhancing aerobic development without the pounding of running.
So who is better Igoli or Lydiard i have no idea the perfect training system is the one that works for the athlete that allows them to win that gold medal i guess.
Good question Jed!
Tend to do a mixture here with a little aussie flavour thrown in with the complex system.
Trained with Cook for a year and had the chance to run with Abdi Bile (1500m World Champion 1987) and his system was very similar to Coe's but the issue was being able to stay injury free. Most people don't know that prior to Abdi winning the WC he was injured from December to March and didn't run at all.
Long hill repeats, progressive runs, alternations 30/40's and with added dynamic drills, bounding, and strength training made us all very fit. This works well when coaching juniors.
Training with 83 WC Deek his system was all about consistency. Every week was nearly the same. Monday/Friday recovery, Tuesday and Thursdays fast efforts with float recoveries, Wednesday progressive, Saturday hitting every hill hard over 10miles and then the tough long runs on Sunday over 18-22 miles of hills.
Nothing is new out there it is find what an athlete can tolerate and be able to come back the next day.
I think there is something in cross training as here in Australia triathlon are big. One 17 year old boy a few years ago ran 8:08 for 3k and he probably ran about 30 miles per week. Swimming and cycling are great tools for recovery and enhancing aerobic development without the pounding of running.
So who is better Igoli or Lydiard i have no idea the perfect training system is the one that works for the athlete that allows them to win that gold medal i guess.
dsmond:
Thanks for the intelligent response. Believe it or not I think I understood what you were talking about every step of the way. There are not many people on Let's Run that know training as well as you do.
If I coach again I might try the Igoli system with a small group of athletes to see how effective it could be. The problem with his system is that you must know your athletes very well and they have to be willing to stick to the program. Having never used it I would not be too sure of my ability to use it. Perhaps a senior who is desperate for quick success might be a candidate for an Igoli system.
I recommend Ventolin Cabral's theory.
This hybrid knows EVERYTHING!
Lydiard = dumb as a bag of hammers
Igloi = genius
There is no "Igloi system". Igloi was on the track personally coaching his athletes 3 hours every day. Are you willing to do that?
I've seen you post disparaging things about Lydiard more than once on here and I'm curious as to why. Lydiard was not a credentialed scientist, but you have to admit that he was very insightful and used something similar to the scientific method in his real-world research. Plus, his methods still work today. I just got done reading about Mottram's training under Nic Bideau, and it seems that it was very Lydiard based. 12:55 ain't bad!
dsrunner wrote:
Lydiard = dumb as a bag of hammers
Igloi = genius
But not quite as dumb as you!
In answer to the original question, in terms of peakig for a precise date in the year Lydiard is probably better. In terms of having athletes set WRs Igloi has few equals. And Igloi achieved success in two very different countries. In terms of long standing influence on the sport Lydiard is unsurpassed. The idea of having the shorter distance men (800 & 1500) regularly do runs of 20 miles or so really originated with Lydiard.
Both coaches made very considerable contributions to the sport we have today, both had their failures, both systems suit some but not others. One thing is certain, there is nobody comparable to either of them around today!
There really is no Igloi System without Igloi himself. Being with his athletes as they trained and adjusting the session as it went on was central to his coaching.
Neither is as good as modern methods. Get with the times, Jed.
Lydiard is not a "theory"
Mark b,
As originator of this thread I give you credit for the best post so far. It is as if you read one of my internet articles on training. I think you are right on every count.
You either are a coach or used to be one.
Jed Clampett, 30 year teacher-coach and current writer for a website
about CC and T & F. We talk to Olympians and national class coaches and athletes.
"Lydiard is the most often misquoted coach on the internet."
Craig Virgin, 27:29 10K and 2 X World CC Champ
However if you read enough about him you know what he stood for and what most of his athletes did. Even today in Ethiopia we see his influence as that was the last group he is supposed to have worked with!
Jed Clampett, 30 year teacher - coach and now writer on CC and T & F for an internet website. We talk to Olympians!
Why does one have to be better if they both work
Read Running With Lydiard... His athletes were doing 160km/week of steady state running, which I would say is just a little bit slower than LT pace... Which in and of itself is very difficult. On top of this base 160km of hard running they did immeasurable easy jogging, meaning they were in reality running around 220-260km/week.
The way to get better in your base phase is to 1) run hard and run long and 2) run easy and run long... People are unwilling to put in the work and dedicate themselves these days. Becoming the greatest is 24hrs/day of work - sleeping, recovering and running a lot doesn't leave room for much else.
HRE wrote:
There really is no Igloi System without Igloi himself. Being with his athletes as they trained and adjusting the session as it went on was central to his coaching.
Very true HRE.
No system is for everyone. Many of Coach Igloi's athletes have their own system adapted form his system.
I also had some good races for me while training under Coach Fred Foot of Canada.
nirt wrote:
Read Running With Lydiard... His athletes were doing 160km/week of steady state running, which I would say is just a little bit slower than LT pace... Which in and of itself is very difficult. On top of this base 160km of hard running they did immeasurable easy jogging, meaning they were in reality running around 220-260km/week.
The way to get better in your base phase is to 1) run hard and run long and 2) run easy and run long... People are unwilling to put in the work and dedicate themselves these days. Becoming the greatest is 24hrs/day of work - sleeping, recovering and running a lot doesn't leave room for much else.
They did not do 160 km/week a little slower than LT pace. The Friday 10 miler was around marathon pace, the rest was steady, which is faster than easy but nowhere near LT pace.