Who's the greatest climber? Pantani, Riis or Rasmussen?

Thanks. I actually read that interview not a very long time ago and remembered the issue with the delta efficiency but couldn't remember the other flaws. As I get it from the narrative, it seems that the measured laboratory data on weight is actually quite reliable, but Coyle apparently uses the figure of 72 kg in many calculations (which have some other issues), a decision that caused his key findings to be even more flawed:

Given this individual's reduction in body weight from 78.9 kg (in 1992) to ∼72 kg during his victories in the Tour de France and given his increased muscular efficiency, his power-to-body weight ratio (i.e., power/kg) when cycling at 5.0 l/min is calculated to have increased by a remarkable 18% from 1992 to 1999 (i.e., 4.74 vs. 5.60 W/kg when V̇o2 is 5.0 l/min)... with the conservative assumption that V̇o2 max was at least 6.1 l/min and given his reported body weight of 72 kg, we estimate his V̇o2 max to have been at least 85 ml·kg−1·min−1 during the period of his victories in the Tour de France.

The fact that Coyle continues to cite the 72kg figure (despite Lance Armstrong himself testifying that he never got that low) and the fact that Coyle will still not release all of his data from the study lead me to conclude that it is not worthy of being taken seriously from a scientific standpoint. (Plus of course the other methodological errors).

I'd say Steve House is right up there too. And Marko Prezelj.

Wrong sport wrote:

Reinhold Messner

The others are cyclists, not climbers

Jon Orange wrote:

So what's hard to understand. You can maximise blood volume in 2-3 weeks.

So we don't develop more capillaries and larger blood vessels after 2-3 weeks?

Random dude gets off the couch and is able to run enough in 2-3 weeks to maximise his blood volume in that time?

We keep developing capillaries for the rest of our lives, whether we run or not.

Yes random dude gets off the couch and is able to sweat enough to maximise his blood volume in 2-3 weeks. He doesn't have to run does he? He can do it on a bike, in the gym, in the sauna even walking.

Now go back to that post where I mentioned Daniels research and read it. Three points all pure gold if you have the sense to realise it? But you will keep missing those points I'm sure.

True or not, but interestingly post-Oprah Lance himself thinks that his weight was significantly lower after he had recovered from cancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA&t=0h46m33s

Jon Orange wrote:

We keep developing capillaries for the rest of our lives, whether we run or not.

Yes random dude gets off the couch and is able to sweat enough to maximise his blood volume in 2-3 weeks. He doesn't have to run does he? He can do it on a bike, in the gym, in the sauna even walking.

Now go back to that post where I mentioned Daniels research and read it. Three points all pure gold if you have the sense to realise it? But you will keep missing those points I'm sure.

Not at the rate we do when training.

No. He does have to exercise though.

Daniels is not a good example of cutting edge science. He'd be a relevant coach now if he was.

Aragon wrote:

True or not, but interestingly post-Oprah Lance himself thinks that his weight was significantly lower after he had recovered from cancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA&t=0h46m33s

Good lord man, you do not give up. There is no "there" there. If Lance's mouth is moving, he's lying.

There is no way that guy was every going to be close to an international elite rider without many, many drugs and help from the cycling federations.

He would never have gotten close to great riders like a Roger De Vlaeminck or even a Van Hoydonck unaided. Not even close. National elite? Yeah, probably.

Aragon wrote:

True or not, but interestingly post-Oprah Lance himself thinks that his weight was significantly lower after he had recovered from cancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA&t=0h46m33s

That's interesting that he thinks it was 20 lbs. That is a lot, at least five pound more than Coyle gives him credit for. Of course Lance can say anything he wants to as there is no way to fact-check this.

Anyway, there are no measurements in any sort of scientific way, so I am dismissing it.

bloody mary keitany wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

We keep developing capillaries for the rest of our lives, whether we run or not.

Yes random dude gets off the couch and is able to sweat enough to maximise his blood volume in 2-3 weeks. He doesn't have to run does he? He can do it on a bike, in the gym, in the sauna even walking.

Now go back to that post where I mentioned Daniels research and read it. Three points all pure gold if you have the sense to realise it? But you will keep missing those points I'm sure.

Not at the rate we do when training.

No. He does have to exercise though.

Daniels is not a good example of cutting edge science. He'd be a relevant coach now if he was.

Increasing blood volume is a response to increased sweating.

Daniels' research really is important, but very few of those who do Daniels' training are aware of it. I am not a believer in his training methods, since they don't logically follow his research.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Aragon wrote:

True or not, but interestingly post-Oprah Lance himself thinks that his weight was significantly lower after he had recovered from cancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA&t=0h46m33s

Good lord man, you do not give up. There is no "there" there. If Lance's mouth is moving, he's lying.

There is no way that guy was every going to be close to an international elite rider without many, many drugs and help from the cycling federations.

He would never have gotten close to great riders like a Roger De Vlaeminck or even a Van Hoydonck unaided. Not even close. National elite? Yeah, probably.

Fantasy. Lance was the greatest Tour de France rider of all time. Ask Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, just don't ask Lemond.

What do you think EPO actually does? Read the research papet Aragon posted. The authors do not believe in the 'greater oxygen transport' concept. It is nothing more than drug folklore for reasons I posted earlier which no-one can argue with.

Jon Orange wrote:

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Good lord man, you do not give up. There is no "there" there. If Lance's mouth is moving, he's lying.

There is no way that guy was every going to be close to an international elite rider without many, many drugs and help from the cycling federations.

He would never have gotten close to great riders like a Roger De Vlaeminck or even a Van Hoydonck unaided. Not even close. National elite? Yeah, probably.

Fantasy. Lance was the greatest Tour de France rider of all time. Ask Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, just don't ask Lemond.

What do you think EPO actually does? Read the research papet Aragon posted. The authors do not believe in the 'greater oxygen transport' concept. It is nothing more than drug folklore for reasons I posted earlier which no-one can argue with.

EVERYONE is arguing it. And they are correct.

That post was just to illustrate the point that for one reason or another, Lance still thinks that the apparently debunked and laughable Coyle-argument on his weight has some validity after all, even after Lance has confessed his PED use.

No offense intended, but your repetitious rants like "Lance would never have gotten close to X, Y or Z...". won't turn into first class arguments, even if you listed the whole Peloton of 1990s into the sentence.

Many who had issues with him (LeMond) didn't think much of Lance's possibilities, but here is a quote from your beloved David Walsh's book Seven Deadly Sins on what Lance's former teammate Steven Swart (not in friendly terms with L.A.) thought of him:

'Everyone' has/have no idea what they are talking about. The world is moving on, you drug obsessed fools are not.

Aragon, did you read the conclusion to the research you posted? The authors don't believe in the 'improved oxygen delivery' concept either, for reasons of, you know...... real physiology vs pretend physiology.

Jon Orange wrote:

Aragon, did you read the conclusion to the research you posted? The authors don't believe in the 'improved oxygen delivery' concept either, for reasons of, you know...... real physiology vs pretend physiology.

Are you referring to conclusion of the study link Aragon posted earlier in the thread or is there something else we should be looking at (

)?

In conclusion, relative to baseline, running performance was significantly improved following 4 weeks of rHuEpo administration in trained men and remained significantly elevated 4 weeks after administration by approximately 6% and 3%, respectively. These performance effects coincided with significantly rHuEpo-induced elevated vO2max and Hb_mass.

Keep reading...

..."it cannot really explain the significant improvement in running performance. Indeed, as oxygen supply and demand are adequately matched during submaximal exercise in healthy men, the rHuEpo-induced augmented oxygen transport capacity cannot be the reason of the improvement in time trial running"

So the concept of 'increased oxygen transport capacity' does not extend to increased oxygen delivery.

What should be measured is the effects of adrenaline, which will take oxygen uptake to its natural peak without compromising oxygen economy.

The most simplest and obvious reconstruction for the improved 3 km TT performance could be simply this: at the given speed, there is less blood flow needed to deliver equal amount of oxygen to working tissues, so both heart rate and the subjective feeling of Rated Perceived Exertion (RPE) would be lower. This is the situation if cardiac output remains somewhat constant with relative polycythemia as it appears to be the case.

To optimize the performance to maximum, a subject naturally adjusts his/her speed upwards so that the subjective feeling of pain is similar to the control situation. To summarize in one sentence: while the speed/oxygen uptake is submaximal, the effort is still maximal.

Jon Orange wrote:

'Everyone' has/have no idea what they are talking about. The world is moving on, you drug obsessed fools are not.

Meanwhile your greatest champion was doped to the gills. Now you think about that.