about talent, mileage, age ... or: why am I so slow?

@letsrun no really lets:

Thanks for your post, I like it and will definitely keep your suggestions in the back of my head. You really made a lot of progress, very impressive.

You ask me if I even like running. You bet I do man! One of the reason I don't run more is [fear of] injury. But I'm slowly working my way up. Very slowly, yes ;)

@LRC wisdom:

Point taken. We will see.

Fear of injury? Try running on grass and trails more. I run on a big field around the corner from my house, it's a mile around the field but I have my own laps planned out which is 1km a lap. It's great because I can wear hurache sandals which are 97% close to barefoot or go barefoot (never had a cut). The sandals are great they have no padding at all but you don't need it on grass and they will never alter my form to cause an injury. You can get thicker ones for trails too. Another good thing is I even do long runs on this soccer field (ipod helps) and I can leave a bag on the grass and put water/bananas in it and I can refuel anytime I want without carrying anything. I can run in sandals down to 4 degrees celsius, barefoot down to 7 degrees. If it's lower than 4 I just take around 4 liters of hot water in my bag and pour it over my feet every couple miles, works good.

This is what I've been doing all winter here in the UK but when March comes I'll be back running on the roads and trails more often, but I'll still use the grass field when my legs feel sore as it's so forgiving to run on.

When I started running the barefoot movement was still a very hot topic so I started out in very minimal shoes [I can't be more specific for obvious reasons ;) haha]. That went well for a while, but then suffered what I in retrospect think were metatarsal stressfractures. Couldn't walk normally, let alone run, for a couple of months. After the injuries healed I went to Saucony Mirages. Nowadays I run in Mirages and NB Zantes.

So how many miles do you run per training, that you even bring bananas with you?

Please take a look at my thread too please.

Okay, yesterday did the easy run. Of course no problem at all. But at the same time, 5:13/km [~8:30/m] is not an easy easy recovery run for me.

But as I understand it, an important point is that the easy runs never interfere with your ability to perform in the harder workouts, right?

Today it's time for the fartlek. Let's see how it goes. The ON tempo br0ski provided is in line with my 400 interval pace [~1:38/400m] so I will start out with the intention of doing the workout 1min 6:30/ 2min 8:30.

Hey don't overthink the paces. I just threw out some possibilities. You do whatever pace you need to feel like you are working but won't hurt yourself.

The point of doing workouts is just to push yourself beyond what you have done in the past and to train the body for race pace.

If that 8:30 pace was too much back it off to 5:30/km. I just wanted to make sure that you don't run every day at the same pace and that the pace is so slow that you aren't improving. Sometimes people can get stuck running the same pace for a long time and their bodies don't adapt and grow. Do what you need to do.

ricardo wrote:

For example, last week I did 5 sessions like this:

Monday: 9,5 miles @ 8:00

Wednesday: 11 miles @ 9:26

Thursday: 6,5 miles @ 8:25

Saturday: 8,5 miles @ 9:12

Sunday: 7 miles @ 8:45, did some 400's with a friend in this session so the average pace is not really relevant here.

I do intervals sometimes but not really structured. a couple 400's at around 6:20, 1000's at 7:00.

Training should be event specific. A sub-20 5k is 6:27 pace. Your paces are 8:00, 9:26, 8:25, 9:12, 8:45. I'm not saying you need to run a 6:26 mile pace on these runs, but you need some work every week closer to goal race pace. If you're going to run 3-4 days a week, you should have three quality workouts each week: intervals, tempo, and a long run. The intervals and tempos should be closer to (or faster than) your goal race pace.

INTERVALS: There are lots of variations for intervals... ladders or reps of distances from 400m to 1 mile. I'd suggest 5x1000m at 6:26/mile pace if you can handle it. If not, either shorten the distance (6x800m) or slow the pace so you can finish the workout. A set distance isn't better than a ladder, but it's easier to track your improvements.

TEMPOS: Warm up 15 minutes or so. Strides and drills. Then, run a tempo. You might start at 2x10minutes or 3x1mile and build up to 1x25 minutes. Pace should be slower than 5k pace. Until you get a feel for what you can handle, try running these at 10k pace or a few seconds/mile slower.

LONG RUN: Conversational pace for 90-120 minutes.

Your 4th running day can be an easy recovery run of 60 minutes or so.

br0ski,

Yes, that makes sense.

I really like the 'schedule' you posted.

The fartlek went pretty well and was very enjoyable. I made a Garmin workout: warm up; 12x[1min, 2min.]; cool down.

The tempo's were a little more polarized than you 'prescribed' [I know ;)] - more like 330-400/km on, 545-600/km off.

________ _

Bummer Bob, I found your thread. I am going to read it later on. Thanks for bringing it up.

Hi fisky, thanks for your advice.

The schedule br0ski posted is the one I'm going to follow. So from now on I will be running 6 days a week if I can handle it.

What you say about tempo pace... I ran my best 10k [42:20] a month after my 5k pr [21:05], so these paces are almost identical at the moment. Next week I will try out some tempo's. start with 10 mins at around 4:40/km and see how that feels. then another 10 mins.

Hi,

I thought I would give you guys an update. Show some respect for the guys who tried to help me out.

Upped my mileage to a consistent 45-50 miles, running 5-6 days a week since starting this thread.

My normal runs are now done at around an average pace of 8:00 [5:00/km] or a little faster, . And I do intervals at extensive speeds, 400's at 5k, 200's at 1500/3000, 1000's at half marathon pace. All with jogging rest for the same distance as the tempo part.

So, the intervals are not really in line with what was advised in the thread but it's not making me slower either, so I will keep going like this for now.

Anyway, yesterday I did a 10k in 40:02 with a first 5k split of 19:44 [horrible positive split, yes ;)], which I am very happy with.

So thanks for the advice!

ricardo wrote:

Hi,

I thought I would give you guys an update. Show some respect for the guys who tried to help me out.

Upped my mileage to a consistent 45-50 miles, running 5-6 days a week since starting this thread.

My normal runs are now done at around an average pace of 8:00 [5:00/km] or a little faster, . And I do intervals at extensive speeds, 400's at 5k, 200's at 1500/3000, 1000's at half marathon pace. All with jogging rest for the same distance as the tempo part.

So, the intervals are not really in line with what was advised in the thread but it's not making me slower either, so I will keep going like this for now.

Anyway, yesterday I did a 10k in 40:02 with a first 5k split of 19:44 [horrible positive split, yes ;)], which I am very happy with.

So thanks for the advice!

awesome stuff my man

Congratulations, that's a great time!

Don't be too discouraged by it. On my cross country team we have about 10-12 runners who do the real workouts and get 30+ miles per week. Out of those runners, only 8 got under 20 in the past 2 seasons. I have no clue what makes the difference. I ran 15 miles or so before preseason then ran a 20:10. For me my previous training in soccer helped me get a good start to running as I was already in good shape and ran several miles unwittingly each practice, even though there was a 5 month gap between the end of my soccer training and my XC start. Well I got off topic, but the point is, don't be discouraged.

Thanks

No I'm not discouraged at all - not anymore. Now that I can run almost every day I feel myself getting stronger every month. And with the running I do now will probably keep on progressing for some time.

Zddz, well, 8 out of 10/12, that's not bad, right? is that both men and women, and what ages are we talking about?

ricardo wrote:

Thanks for your post.

Yes, but I have to say that lately I have been running more frequently, most weeks 4, some weeks 5.

For example, last week I did 5 sessions like this:

Monday: 9,5 miles @ 8:00

Wednesday: 11 miles @ 9:26

Thursday: 6,5 miles @ 8:25

Saturday: 8,5 miles @ 9:12

Sunday: 7 miles @ 8:45, did some 400's with a friend in this session so the average pace is not really relevant here.

I do intervals sometimes but not really structured. a couple 400's at around 6:20, 1000's at 7:00

Is there something to say about that week of training? Or does it just look aimless and random, which it sort of is.

In the next couple of weeks I will try to run more frequently.

These are all easy running paces for a person running a 20min 5k.

You need to add some miles of tempo work in the 6:45-7:00 min/mile, at least once a week. Some fast running would be good too, adding 12x1min/1min fast/slow bursts to one of your weekly runs (say 10-15secs faster than 5k pace)

ricardo wrote:

Anyway, yesterday I did a 10k in 40:02 with a first 5k split of 19:44 [horrible positive split, yes ;)], which I am very happy with.

So thanks for the advice!

This level of fitness is an amazing improvement for such a short time. In the OP you said you were shooting to maybe break 20min for 5km.

Good job!

I remember this thread! Read through the whole thing again.

Thanks for the update! Great job, man.

New10kRunner wrote:

ricardo wrote:

Anyway, yesterday I did a 10k in 40:02 with a first 5k split of 19:44 [horrible positive split, yes ;)], which I am very happy with.

So thanks for the advice!

This level of fitness is an amazing improvement for such a short time. In the OP you said you were shooting to maybe break 20min for 5km.

Good job!

Yes, thanks man, I'm pleasantly surprised myself too. The combination of more miles, more days/week, pushing the pace on normal runs and starting to be more consistent with intervals is really paying off already. And doing one run of at least 11 miles per week.

A month ago I already did a 10k in 40:30 and an 8k in 32:20, so I hope to keep this upward spiral going and take off at least 3 seconds and go just under 40 in my next 10k race, the second week of June.

Braavos wrote:

I remember this thread! Read through the whole thing again.

Thanks for the update! Great job, man.

You're welcome, my pleasure!