Remember when "atheist" had a negative connotation?

truely millennial wrote:

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

Do you acknowledge that there's a difference between believing in the existence of god and worshiping that god? Do you also acknowledge that someone could simultaneously believe in god and choose not to worship him, as is demonstrated by satan who, according to the Bible, believes in god but chooses not to worship him?

Yes. From James 2:19, "Even the deamons believe in one God, and shudder in fear."

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

Do you think that demonstrating existence in any way negates free will? Did believing in the existence of the last person you met in any way negate your free will?

I don't understand your question. If I meet someone then I know they are real because I met them. I have the free will to choose whether I want to see them again...

Could you choose, through sheer force of will, to not believe in the existence of the last person you met? For example, you are introduced to someone. Do you have a choice whether or not to believe they exist or are you bound by the evidence you have been presented to believe in their existence?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

thejeff wrote:

"God, I pray first and foremost that you use an evil like this for your greater glory, that you could use this to bring others closer to you that they might receive salvation through your grace. And Father, I do not know your perfect will, but in my ignorance I ask for supernatural healing for this child. In the meantime, Father, please give this family the comfort of your Holy Spirit and the assurance of your perfect timing and plan."

1. This would seem to contradict something you wrote earlier, that it was a mistake to pray for healing as it is praying to delay their greater union with god.

2. Do you believe god is behind every nonhuman action?

1. I believe that I acknowledged that in my prayer.

2. Not in the morally blameworthy sense that you mean, no.

Excellent questions.

Yes, I would agree that we need to either believe all of the Bible or none of it. Once you start cherry picking the parts that you want to believe, you have formed your own belief system.

Although there is something to be learned from every story in the Bible, I do not think that every event in the Bible necessarily happened. For instance, Jesus taught in parables. These parables are presented as something that actually happened, but both the speaker and listeners are aware that the story is allegorical. Did Jesus actually teach X specific lesson in Y particular town? Absolutely, yes. Did Jesus have actual historical events in mind when he presented, say, the parable of the Prodigal Son? I don't know, nor do I think it matters. He was teaching a lesson, and the lesson is what matters.

I have asked Biblical scholars if certain events in the OT could similarly be allegorical. I have gotten a variety of answers, but none of the answers I have gotten lead me to believe that the Bible has made untrue historical claims.

Phil Collins wrote:

Jeff, if God told you to sacrifice your son would you? Do you believe that happened to Abraham?

Yes or no please.

Yes. That being said, I would make darn skippy sure I was clear that it was God. (Don't let that freak you out; there is no need for you to call DHR on me...If God showed Himself to you in all of His glory, so would you. Make sure you understand what you are asking!)

Yes, I believe that it happened to Abraham.

thejeff wrote:

2. Not in the morally blameworthy sense that you mean, no.

So it's possible that a kid might get cancer just because some cells begin to make errant copies of themselves and become cancerous. And it's also possible that we're able to use our modern medicine to eliminate those cancerous cells and cure this child and that the whole process from illness to recovery had no supernatural hand in it at all.

Sloetry in Motion wrote:

truely millennial wrote:

Yes. From James 2:19, "Even the deamons believe in one God, and shudder in fear."

I don't understand your question. If I meet someone then I know they are real because I met them. I have the free will to choose whether I want to see them again...

Could you choose, through sheer force of will, to not believe in the existence of the last person you met? For example, you are introduced to someone. Do you have a choice whether or not to believe they exist or are you bound by the evidence you have been presented to believe in their existence?

Sorry to butt in. I just want to say that I am glad the thread is going in this direction. We are asking each other deeply involved philosophical and theological questions, without insulting the other side.

Carry on :-)

thejeff wrote:

Phil Collins wrote:

Jeff, if God told you to sacrifice your son would you? Do you believe that happened to Abraham?

Yes or no please.

Yes. That being said, I would make darn skippy sure I was clear that it was God. (Don't let that freak you out; there is no need for you to call DHR on me...If God showed Himself to you in all of His glory, so would you. Make sure you understand what you are asking!)

Yes, I believe that it happened to Abraham.

You would kill your son if you truly believe God had asked you to. Religious terrorists kill people because they truly believe God has asked them to. Is there a difference?

thejeff wrote:

Phil Collins wrote:

Jeff, if God told you to sacrifice your son would you? Do you believe that happened to Abraham?

Yes or no please.

Yes. That being said, I would make darn skippy sure I was clear that it was God. (Don't let that freak you out; there is no need for you to call DHR on me...If God showed Himself to you in all of His glory, so would you. Make sure you understand what you are asking!)

Yes, I believe that it happened to Abraham.

How would you be sure? You've never met Him or had Him speak to you.

No, I would actually not do that. That's crazy.

thejeff wrote:

I have asked Biblical scholars if certain events in the OT could similarly be allegorical. I have gotten a variety of answers, but none of the answers I have gotten lead me to believe that the Bible has made untrue historical claims.

There is no way a man and a very large boat could find, collect and maintain for any length of time, two of every one of the millions of species of animal on earth. Naturalists in the 17th century realized that Noah's flood couldn't have happened. They couldn't figure out why Native Americans would have brought rattlesnakes with them to the New World, but not horses or cows. And then they realized it wasn't possible for Noah to collect 30,000 species of spider, 300,000 species of beetle and so one. And then for all of them to copulate successfully from single pairs and repopulate the wrecked earth avoiding genetic bottlenecks.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

thejeff wrote:

2. Not in the morally blameworthy sense that you mean, no.

So it's possible that a kid might get cancer just because some cells begin to make errant copies of themselves and become cancerous. And it's also possible that we're able to use our modern medicine to eliminate those cancerous cells and cure this child and that the whole process from illness to recovery had no supernatural hand in it at all.

Absolutely.

PS- I do not mean that in a Deistic sense. God is present, intimate, and immanent. But that doesn't mean there has to be a supernatural cause for cancer or for your car running out of gas :-)

jeff, go and tell your son that. See what he says.

thejeff wrote:

Absolutely.

PS- I do not mean that in a Deistic sense. God is present, intimate, and immanent. But that doesn't mean there has to be a supernatural cause for cancer or for your car running out of gas :-)

So you could pray for a person to recover from illness or injury and they could recover without any divine intervention?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Yes. That being said, I would make darn skippy sure I was clear that it was God. (Don't let that freak you out; there is no need for you to call DHR on me...If God showed Himself to you in all of His glory, so would you. Make sure you understand what you are asking!)

Yes, I believe that it happened to Abraham.

You would kill your son if you truly believe God had asked you to. Religious terrorists kill people because they truly believe God has asked them to. Is there a difference?

Huge difference between humans indoctrinating humans from a young age and from the almighty creator of the universe revealing Himself to an individual, yes.

Do the terrorists honestly believe that God favors their cause and actions? Yes. But, that is the doing of humans with free will.

Let me reiterate: if God revealed Himself to you in all of His glory, you would do exactly what He asked, too :-)

Phil Collins wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Yes. That being said, I would make darn skippy sure I was clear that it was God. (Don't let that freak you out; there is no need for you to call DHR on me...If God showed Himself to you in all of His glory, so would you. Make sure you understand what you are asking!)

Yes, I believe that it happened to Abraham.

How would you be sure? You've never met Him or had Him speak to you.

No, I would actually not do that. That's crazy.

How would I be sure? If there were ANY doubt, then I certainly wouldn't act. We aren't talking about a voice in my head. We aren't talking about a dream. We are talking about God PHYSICALLY REVEALING HIMSELF to you, in a radiance and splendor that you couldn't bear to look at it, that would bring you to your knees and confess every sinful thought you had ever had, in a way that would make you realize how incredible He is and how relatively insignificant we are. You would know, my friend :-)

There are tons of ways to understand Noah's story that don't involve 30,000 species of spider or rely on 17th century naturalists :-)

Isaac WTF Dad? wrote:

jeff, go and tell your son that. See what he says.

We have read the story together many times. And, I don't mind my sons being mentioned in a hypothetical sense, but let's leave family members out of this in a realistic sense :-)

Jeff Wigand wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Absolutely.

PS- I do not mean that in a Deistic sense. God is present, intimate, and immanent. But that doesn't mean there has to be a supernatural cause for cancer or for your car running out of gas :-)

So you could pray for a person to recover from illness or injury and they could recover without any divine intervention?

Of course.

lol, I am waiting for you to use my words against me :-) Go ahead, I am ready :-)

(but, I will have to check back later... back to work for me :-) ttys)

thejeff wrote:

Huge difference between humans indoctrinating humans from a young age and from the almighty creator of the universe revealing Himself to an individual, yes.

Do the terrorists honestly believe that God favors their cause and actions? Yes. But, that is the doing of humans with free will.

Let me reiterate: if God revealed Himself to you in all of His glory, you would do exactly what He asked, too :-)

How can you hope to verify either claim? You had a vision where God tells you to sacrifice your son. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had a vision where God tells him to smite out those on planet Earth who would oppose his strict and holy vision as interpreted by Salifism.

Imagine you're speaking to al-Baghdadi about this. He earnestly believes in the vision that he's had from God. What could you say to convince him he hadn't truly received this vision from God?

thejeff wrote:

There are tons of ways to understand Noah's story that don't involve 30,000 species of spider or rely on 17th century naturalists :-)

Shoot.