Doping problem comes to Ultramarathons

I am no fan of Lance or Carmichael, but it is well-known in cycling that Carmichael was just a beard for Armstrong (a very fortunate beard it turned out) to allow him to be coached by Ferrari.

Landis hates Armstrong and even he has said publicly that Carmichael was just a front. You aren't a cyclist are you?

Good catch

Correction - settled out of court a law-suit from 2 former members of the U.S. Jr. Cycling team (that Carmichael coached) for personally doping them with illegal performance enhancing drugs to the extent that it caused them health problems later on.

Yes, Carmichael first learned of Lance using PED's in 1995 and what did he do with that knowledge? He coached him on an Olympic Team the next year without reporting Lance's admission to taking PED's, and started coaching him full-time a year later. Further confirmation PED use was par for the course as far as Carmichael was concerned.

It is amazing that anyone would try and use this as defense of Carmichael. He KNEW of Lance's doping and sent him to the Olympics anyways and decided after knowing that he wanted to coach Lance.

I wouldn't go there. As a cyclist you know that almost everyone in cycling considers Carmichael to be dirty, Lance or not, including Landis. This is why Carmichael has tried to fade into the background now and let Koop and others be his front men.

And even if you are right and Carmchael was just an adviser more than a coach then he is a big liar for building a business around being Lance's coach and claiming for over a decade he was 100% Lance's primary coach and charging inflated fees because of that. Seems like this guy goes with whatever works best at the moment whether that be drugs or lies.

Prominent Ultra Runner's working under the shady CTS regime include:

Alex Varner, Dylan Bowman, Kaci licktieg, and Larisa Dannis.

How do they stomach putting money in Carmichael's pocket each month?

And how does Koop morally work dutifully under such a doping legacy.

Little respect for the whole crew. They are helping the man with one of the worst legacies in doping get a strong foothold in a sport they claim to love.

Sick

Concerned Ultra Runner wrote:

Good catch

Correction - settled out of court a law-suit from 2 former members of the U.S. Jr. Cycling team (that Carmichael coached) for personally doping them with illegal performance enhancing drugs to the extent that it caused them health problems later on.

Yes, Carmichael first learned of Lance using PED's in 1995 and what did he do with that knowledge? He coached him on an Olympic Team the next year without reporting Lance's admission to taking PED's, and started coaching him full-time a year later. Further confirmation PED use was par for the course as far as Carmichael was concerned.

It is amazing that anyone would try and use this as defense of Carmichael. He KNEW of Lance's doping and sent him to the Olympics anyways and decided after knowing that he wanted to coach Lance.

Well done with your research!

Dig a little bit more.....I remember one of those 2 former members of the US Junior Cycling Team with Carmichael developed endocrine problems; however the other one( I remember reading about this when I did some research on Lance's past, but check for yourself, as I might be wrong) got TESTICULAR CANCER, the same cancer Lance got......2 young guys on the same small team with Carmichael both getting the same cancer!...what are the odds?...and it is known that anabolic steroids (including testosterone), and HGH, and possibly even EPO can stimulate cancer growth.....Carmichael needs to be revealed and he needs to go away and stay away from all types of athletes.......He is a big and corrupt FAKE!.........

Incorrect. Carmichael was a beard. Ferrari was the man with the workouts and blood chemistry, as he was for nearly all the top riders.

We should ask Chris Vargo.

He's a former pro cyclist that has had "health-related injuries" for the past year after dominating for short while on the MUT circuit. Never seen a guy flame out so quickly.

I'll have to give Carmichael credit for being a sly business man. He did the right things (however unethical) to salvage his business once Lance got busted.

He removed all references to Lance from the CTS website, which was a complete overhaul as Lance was everywhere and their #1 marketing promotion until that point.

He took a backseat, stopped doing interviews for the most part and pushed forward the likable Jason Koop to be more of the front man for CTS.

He started the move heavily into ultra-running which has significantly less to no testing for PED's

He recruited, through Koop, young, cute, likable (but naive) runners like Lickteig and Dannis to run for CTS and promote them. I doubt they even know the extent of Carmichael's PED past.

But this does not change the fact that the training philosophy and system is 100% Carmichael's and the money CTS makes goes directly into his pocket. He is the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. And 100% built upon the doping of Lance and many other athletes over the course of his coaching and pro cycling career.

So when a magazine or website features Koop they need to ask him in-depth questions about Carmichael because that is where everything comes from, Jason just carries out the system Carmichael showed him. His inability to explain to Ian Sharman, in the Ultra-Running magazine interview, physiologically how or why the system worked should have made it very clear that he is just Carmichael smiling puppet. And when the conversation turns to Carmichael they need to ask about his shady past. Hopefully Carmichael, Koop and their runners stop getting a pass by the media.

My comment above was not meant to absolve Carmichael of his involvement in systematic cheating. I meant only to point out that the architect behind Armstrong's (and Postal's) success was Ferrari. Carmichael is an opportunistic and enterprising cheat but shouldn't be confused with the brilliance and evil-genius mastermind-ness of Michelle.

The problem with PEDs in sports is exactly what this example shows: Guys like Carmichael skate on, for decades sometimes, while regulators and consumers are lead to believe enforcement is working because a few athletes have been sanctioned/suspended. Where are the other doctors/coaches/managers/riders that worked with Postal? I'd imagine nearly all are safely employed and still working in the sport. All with the knowledge of how to drastically improve performance, evade detection, and gross up compensation/fees/bonuses. Carmichael and guys like him shouldn't be working in sport.

S. Canaday wrote:

Collin, you saw the flack I got on Facebook for saying that Lance Armstrong should be banned from races...

No, I can't name any specific names...I have my suspicions though. The MUT Running scene outside the US just seems to have that Tour /cycling vibe sometimes..

Does it rhyme with Jillian Kornet?

hulksmash wrote:

My comment above was not meant to absolve Carmichael of his involvement in systematic cheating. I meant only to point out that the architect behind Armstrong's (and Postal's) success was Ferrari. Carmichael is an opportunistic and enterprising cheat but shouldn't be confused with the brilliance and evil-genius mastermind-ness of Michelle.

The problem with PEDs in sports is exactly what this example shows: Guys like Carmichael skate on, for decades sometimes, while regulators and consumers are lead to believe enforcement is working because a few athletes have been sanctioned/suspended. Where are the other doctors/coaches/managers/riders that worked with Postal? I'd imagine nearly all are safely employed and still working in the sport. All with the knowledge of how to drastically improve performance, evade detection, and gross up compensation/fees/bonuses. Carmichael and guys like him shouldn't be working in sport.

I agree and think part of the blame goes to the athletes who continue to work with the likes of Carmichaell. Ignorance is not a valid defense in my opinion. I know they work with Koop mainly and not Carmichael directly (or as much) but Koop is an extension of and complicit with Carmichael for 15 years.

It's a shame two because several nice, talented, young ultra-runners stand to have their careers and reputations tarnish long term because of their association with and promotion of CTS. With CTS coaching all performances they do will automatically be suspect by many in the sport.

I would stay far away from CTS. Carmichael has a disordered brain, complete with covert narcissistic personality disorder. He lies terribly and ferociously. He harasses. He should be banned for life for doping Greg Strock and others. Recently, his personal behavior is atrocious against women.

Actually, I'm glad this thread came up. There's been a former skier who is destroying it in ultras/marathons lately. Skiers are known for rampant drug use... In August, he ran 2 ultras that were a week apart. First one, huge course record. Next one, beat Sage Canaday. Less than 2 months later runs a 2:18 marathon, alone, in terrible conditions, winning some solid money. The article on this race said this came two weeks after a new best in the half marathon. Heard he's planning on another ultra very soon that has some cash at stake...

The body has limitations. His doesn't seem to. I'll call bull $h1t on this one.

Only on let's run:

A guy who runs 2:18 is an obvious doper but guys who run 2:12 to 2:14 are basically hobby joggers.

As i've said for years the sport is certainly not clean. I think there are less dopers than road and track pro running (obviously the numbers are much smaller in this niche of running), but mountain-ultra-trail is ripe for PED usage as we are hardly ever tested. And I've certainly been beaten by lots of talented, hard working guys that I'm pretty sure are 100% clean. They are flat out better "mountain athletes" than I am. The realm of "MUT running" isn't just about Vo2max power, faster recovery from hard training, frequent racing, and quads of steel as there are some technical aspects that can "level the playing field." You can only get so far on PEDs if you don't eat enough or get stomach issues during an ultra.

We've already seen guys who get top 10 at races like UTMB and Comrades get busted for PEDs on a race day test. These are tests that top athletes know months in advance that they will be ordered to do if they place well!

If there was any sort of legit bio passport or more enforced testing I'd predict more people would test positive. I'm not saying it's a very high percent of top runners, but even if 5% of top level runners are taking banned PEDs they might be fighting for a 3-8% competitive advantage...which can be the difference between a life-career changing sponsorship deal, international travel perks, a boost in social media following (good for the ego), and tens of thousands of dollars. There is plenty of incentive for some to break WADA rules and dope with PEDs.

Way fewer in ultrarunning than other sports (I hope), but I know of several. You’ve got the anti-agers, the high-altitude asthmatics, the ex-climbers & ex-cyclists. Others eat NSAIDs like candy, or burden the medics by taking all their fluids from an IV at the finish! Just like non-athletes who can’t get through the day without PEDs.

Dead giveaway is when they say they “can’t sleep.”

Concerned Ultra Runner wrote:

I have noticed several publications and websites recently writing articles about the plague of doping (PED usage) coming to the niche of ultra marathon running where popularity, prize purses and sponsorships are growing but drug testing is minimal to non-existent.

someone needs to start looking at masters track and road racing records and start asking the same questions.

Masters has a lengthy record of doping. Eddy H was the most prominent offender, but take a look at the women's masters records from F40-F55 almost across the board.

There is not a ton of money in masters running, but with the so-called "anti-aging" industry, you have a huge wad of money pushing from the direction of advertising, pharma salesmen leveraging physicians, and physicians themselves being weaned a the teat of pharamacology uber alles. It is a huge infrastructure that is there in symbiosis with basic human fear of aging and health decline, not to mention ego-flattery involved with PEDs regardless of age. I have no doubt that I, and clean athletes I coach, have toed the line with under-the-radar masters dopers on T, HGH and other such drugs.

I feel a little guilty when I use energy gels with caffeine in them. I draw the the line on no Red Bull and Run Gum. I have scruples.

Ultrarunning is filled with both normal and oddball runners. Just like any endeavor where there is competition for top spots there will be those looking to seek unfair advantage.

Another problem with the ultra scene is a large percentage of ugly and pretentious tattoos. This would be a good place to start in cleaning up the sport.

S.O.W.P.