Is a long run considered a "workout"?

yes- long run = workout

especially during the hard training, when you do long runs hard

formerD1 wrote:

Enh don't agree with that analogy.

Let's say I'm a chef. Let's say I go to the store and buy groceries. I wouldn't call that "cooking." Cooking is when I start making the food on the menu ordered by the customer.

Or let's say I'm a pilot. There's flying, when I'm actually in the cockpit of a plane. Then there's the portions when I'm reading manuals and studying aerodynamics and technical aspects of the plane.

All these things enable me to do the thing that makes my "job" what it is. In fact I may spend more time preparing to cook than actually cooking, I may spend more time studying to be a pilot than actually flying, and just the same, I probably spend a lot more time recovering and taking easy days than I am actually pounding the pavement during my workouts.

That is one of the dumbest attempts at analogy ever seen on this message board. Well done! You've accomplished what even the trolls couldn't do.

Right on Malmö

A good reader, but not so much a writer!

Do not tell me to learn to read. I read well. Here in Japan we go school every day every year. You Americans take too much break

All I saod was that elites dont consider easy runs to be workouts. Stop with the idiotic strawman argument about whether or not you bemefit from easy runs because obviously you do.

Did they teach you to make completely irrelevant idiotic posts at your public school? Get with the problem hobby jogger.

i.c. dong wrote:

By long run I mean 16 miles and up, and at a fairly conversational pace. Is this a "workout"?

If someone asks, for example, 'how many workouts a week do you do?' Do you include the long run in your answer?

The context of this question is asking if a 'Long Run' is considered to be in the same category as Hill Repeats, Intervals, Tempo Runs, etc... The answer is YES! A long run due to its duration (16 plus miles) is meant to develop aerobic capacity through prolonged steady activity. A run in which your 'Working Out' for an hour and half or more puts a considerable amount of stress on your system. 'Long Runs' are NOT meant to be run at a pace in which your anaerobic capacity is used. LONG-SLOW-DISTANCE. In other words, Quantity over Quality. Any run can be considered a 'Workout' but not in this context.

i.c. dong wrote: If someone asks, for example, 'how many workouts a week do you do?'

Although I've often hoped that someone, preferably a cute girl, would, no one has ever asked me this.

Malmo, i gotta disagree with you here. I believe all runs are "workouts" but most runners have just set this term for the harder runs. Although dependent on what event it is you are training for, i dont consider the "workouts" to be the icing on the cake. If you ran 1 hour easy every day, youre not gonna run fast for any event. If you run a threshold/tempo run every day/evey other day, with no easy days inbetween, youll run a solid 5k. If you do quarters at mile pace every other day, youll run a real good mile as opposed to you just running 45 minutes easy everyday

malmo wrote:

takashi yoshi wrote:

Yes. Long run is workout. Easy run is not workout

Wrong. Categorically wrong. ALL runs are workouts. In fact the most important runs of the week are your easy runs -- they are the ones that will produce 85 percent of your fitness. The rest is just the icing on the cake.

I don't wanna steal the thread, but it seems I have another opinion than you and former D1. That's ok for me. I just believe if you ran 100 - 150 miles "easy" and perhaps a couple strides you would be in great shape. E.g. if an elite marathoner would run every day 13 miles in the morning and 7 miles in the evening. He would be in a heck of shape. Obviously not in perfect shape. But pretty damn fit. All runs are workouts and the normal distance runs are the most important IMO.

Yes, you'd be in great shape if you ran 100+ easy/slow miles per week. I'd reckon you'd do solid in the marathon, HM and maybe even the 10K.

However, would this person be good at the 5K? 3000m? 1500m? 800m? I'd say absolutely not. Probably bang average.

Like I said in other threads, the top 800m runners I knew or heard of (including Rudisha), mostly ran under 40 miles per week, did "long runs" of like 5 miles, etc. And they were running 1:45 or faster. The utility of a "long run" therefore becomes less important at the shorter distances.

And I have no idea why we're still arguing - I think we're all in agreement that the "long run" is a very important "workout" for distance runners. It's just the easy "5 miles" that you may do as a recovery run or doing your taper, just aren't meant to make you faster and elites wouldn't consider that to be a "workout" although obviously there are neurological benefits that you are gaining at any speed of running.

formerd1 i am on 20mpw started running in august. when should i start doing workouts to be fast at 5k? and whos faster at both events the 5k guy or the marathon guy?

Well I would say you shouldn't even think about doing "workouts" until you are running at least 35 mpw, since the additional mileage will give you the most benefit as opposed to doing intervals slowly and dangerously. The most you should do in my opinion are some light strides, maybe 6x80m 2 times a week.

Who's faster at both events? Well Geb was originally a 5K/10K guy and he set the marathon WR. Most top marathoners start off as 5k/10K guys. For most runners, it's much harder to be faster at the 5K than it is to do well in the marathon. That's why all these VDOT calculators are skewed. If you put in a 15:00 5K time, your equivalent marathon time is MUCH faster than what most people could hope to run the marathon in, whereas if you put in your marathon time, your equivalent 5K time will likely be pretty accurate.

formerD1 wrote:

I think we're all in agreement that the "long run" is a very important "workout" for distance runners.

No we're not in agreement.

Alberto Salazar

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.

Todd Williams

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles.

=======================================================================

From that thread a summary from Alberto Salazars training log in 1977

70 days, 130 sessions

60 doubles

10 singles

21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)

14.2 miles = avg daily mileage

2.7 miles = stdev

15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)

69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)

7.1 miles = avg AM run

6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)

61 = number of PM runs

8.3 miles = avg PM run

9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)

13.0 miles = avg long run

15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.

Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage

========================================================================

FROM THE TODD WILLIAMS TRAINING THREAD

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts: Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace.

10 long runs (12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10)

10.2 miles = avg long run

12 miles = longest run. One occurrence.

Long runs = 80% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.4% of the avg weekly mileage

=================================================================

Alberto Salazar's 1977cross country log.

Sept 5-11 105 miles

9/5 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles

9/6 T - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles

9/7 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles

9/8 T - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles

9/9 F - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400 jog PM 4 miles

9/11 S - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles

Sept 12-18 108 miles

9/12 M - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles

9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy

9/14 W - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles

9/16 F - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles

9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy

9/18 S - AM 13 miles

Sept 19-25 110 miles

9/19 M - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles

9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles

9/21 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles

9/23 F - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total

9/25 S - AM 11 miles easy PM 2 miles with stairs

Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles

9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)

9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown

9/28 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles

9/30 F - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown

10/2 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles

10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown

10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles

10/7 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy

10/9 S - AM 14 miles (around the Butte)

Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles

10/10 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy

10/12 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles

10/14 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown

10/16 S - AM 14 miles

Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles

10/17 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill, 4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown

10/19 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.

10/21 F - AM 6 miles, sore tendon

10/22 S - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles still painful, but better

10/23 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles

10/24 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown

10/26 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles and strides

10/28 F - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy

10/30 S - AM 15 miles (note: had Alberto run his usual 13-14 miles he wouldn’t have made 100, LOL!)

Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles

10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown

11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown

11/2 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330

11/4 F - AM 4 miles PM rest

11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)

11/6 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles

11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown

11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)

11/9 W - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown

11/11 F - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown

11/13 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles

11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30

11/15 T - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles

11/17 T - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles

11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile

11/19 S - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/20 S - AM 4 miles

Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles

11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.

11/22 T - 5 miles

11/23 W - 5 miles

11/24 T - 4 miles

11/25 F - 5 miles

11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)

11/27S - 4 miles

Summary:

70 days, 130 sessions

60 doubles

10 singles

21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)

14.2 miles = avg daily mileage

15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)

69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)

7.1 miles = avg AM run

6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)

61 = number of PM runs

8.3 miles = avg PM run

9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)

13.0 miles = avg long run

15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.

Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage

======================================================================

What it takes to run 42:22 at the Gate River Run?By Todd Williams*

Wow! It’s been 12 years since I ran one of the best races of my career and set the American record of 42:22 right here in Jacksonville at the 1995 Gate River Run. I was also fortunate enough -- through lots of hard work -- to win four other Gate River Runs in the 90’s. I retired from competitive racing in 2003 and today the question I am asked most is: how did I run that fast and how did I train to average 4:30 per mile for 9.3 miles? My reply is always the same. I had plenty of talent but I also WORKED EXTREMELY HARD over a long period of time. In this article I’ll give an inside look at the training I did leading up to the 1995 Gate River Run. However, I DO NOT ADVISE THIS TRAINING SCHEDULE for anyone other than a world-class runner. What worked for me won’t necessarily work for you. Now that I’m coaching I know it’s extremely important to train each runner differently. Each runner has a certain mileage and intensity they can handle and must adjust accordingly. Following is an example of my training leading to my record setting performance.

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run:?110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run:?12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts:?Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace. The strides helped develop my speed and I left the track each day feeling fast. I was also in the weight room three times a week for circuit training consisting of body weight exercises (push-ups, dips, lunges, pull-ups etc). I took very little rest between each exercise. I wanted to break down my muscles and make them work when they were very fatigued. I liked to duplicate the feel I would have in the later stages of my races.

Even though I only stretched about 10 minutes before and after each run, I always recommend doing whatever you’ve been doing that keeps you healthy. Don’t change what works.

As you can see, I didn’t do anything magical. I just ran a consistent program year-in and year-out that got me to the point of handling a higher work load. I was also very fortunate to stay healthy for a majority of my running career.

My advice to all runners at any level is to stick with what works, stay consistent and if you are a beginner or a runner that wants advice, contact me at PUSHTHEPACE.com and I’ll help design a program that best fits your needs.

Best of luck to all of you.

*Todd Williams is a 2-time Olympian and is the only 5-time Gate River Run champion. He set the American 15K record of 42:22 at Gate River Run in 1995, a record which still stands today.

formerD1 wrote:

All I saod was that elites dont consider easy runs to be workouts. Stop with the idiotic strawman argument about whether or not you bemefit from easy runs because obviously you do.

I'm pretty sure I've trained with a hell of a lot more elites than you have.

Meet me after your workout?

Sure.

What are you doing?

10 miles easy.

formerD1 wrote:

I think we're getting bogged down in semantics. Making claims like "85% of your fitness" is really unbecoming of you..

If you are a 4:00 miler at least 85% (perhaps 90%) of your fitness will come from your easy runs, which would mean....drumroll...a 4:42 mile. It's the "icing" that gets you the rest of the way.

Bro, for me anything over 60 minutes of continuous running is a "long run" hence the quotations.

You probably have. I was a middling high 3:40s 1500m runner, converted from a 1:50 800m in HS. I trained on the West Coast, as you may know NCAA experiences can differ drastically. In that sense we were closer to Michigan than say Colorado. I did have the pleasure of running with a few Olympians and other elites who would join us on our "workouts", and did get a chance to run with some of the "greats" like Webb when they would pop in for a workout.

I never did 10 miles "easy" after a hard workout. It was more like a 5 mile jog, but then our school was famous for being low on mileage compared to other schools.

And I would agree with you, but I think that's misleading. "Fitness" is the prerequisite to a miler, but what we all care about in the business end of things is speed endurance.

"Workouts" to develop speed endurance is where we spend most of our time, and the ability to do such "workouts" at the required pace is what separates a JV high school runner from Alan Webb. That's a huge distinction from general 'fitness" which is missing from your description.