Malmo on long runs

I always interpreted it as: a long run should not be a significant amount of your weekly mileage, at least not so significant that you have to reduce your mileage the day before and after your long run to recover. It always appears to me as if he promotes spreading your weekly mileage more evenly over the week. For example, a 15 mile long run would not be appropriate for a person running 50 miles per week. I think I have seen him write that it is ok to bump up the distance every few weeks (for marathon training, etc) but not to make it a habit of running an inflated long run every week.

You heard incorrectly, he is not against long runs. Read for yourself.

"The long run is the most overrated aspect of training. If you wanted/needed, you could completely do without it. That makes it the least important run.

This is not the same as advising one not to do them. What I'm saying is to get all of the other pieces of the puzzle in place before you get in the long runs."

In another post Malmo was basically against a regular long run that was a huge proportion of weekly mileage, not a run that is somewhat longer than the average run. What he was against was the long run eating into other things that are more important when carving up one's quanta of energy (higher overall mileage, doubles, workouts, etc.).

Just wondering if anyone (maybe Malmo) has suggestions on how you would fit the long run into training for races 50mi and up. I've had weeks where my LR was 50% of my weekly mileage, but those weeks do hurt!

Malmo said:

I already have. The long run is the most overrated aspect of training. If you wanted/needed, you could completely do without it. That makes it the least important run.

This is not the same as advising one not to do them. What I'm saying is to get all of the other pieces of the puzzle in place before you get in the long runs.

It's simple: the long run is the single most overrated aspect of athletic training for running. Most runners put a disproportionate emphasis on one run compared to their overall weekly mileage, when they'd be better off concentrating on the 6 other days of the week before they ever throw in long runs.

If you are running 60 miles a week with 15 of them concentrated in one day, why would you be surprised that you are not improving when you've had your thumb up your ass six days a week?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2277974

I don't think Malmo is saying anything too unusual as to the long run. Most coaches favor a relatively consistent amount of mileage per day throughout the week, without huge dips and peaks. A long run once a week is great, but what about the other six days? So if you\'re doing 100 mile weeks (14 a day on average), a long run of like 14-18 miles with that as your only run that day, but without backing off the total mileage too much either the day before or day after. So if you\'re only doing 50 miles a week, probably a long run of no more than 8-10.

Also, I want to say I read this in an issue of Runner\'s World way back in the mid- to late-90s: in an interview with Haile Geb., he said that he didn\'t see the point of any run over 12 miles if you are racing anything 10k or under. That stuck with me and I think it\'s pretty accurate. I also seem to recall from Todd Williams\' logs that he didn\'t do a long run at all most weeks.

yeah, what he said.

I remember reading Scott Dvorak say that his coach told him not to make his long run more than 2 miles longer than his highest daily total during the week (this assumed Scott was running doubles). So if your longest other day is 5 AM/10 PM then your long run should be no more than 17. I, personally, have found my long run sweet spot to be arounf 15-16 miles. Any more than that and I require so much recovery that I can't get the rest of the stuff I need in.

search function user wrote:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2472389&thread=2472389

You heard incorrectly, he is not against long runs. Read for yourself.

From that thread a summary from Alberto Salazars training log in 1978

70 days, 130 sessions

60 doubles

10 singles

21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)

14.2 miles = avg daily mileage

2.7 miles = stdev

15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)

69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)

7.1 miles = avg AM run

6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)

61 = number of PM runs

8.3 miles = avg PM run

9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)

13.0 miles = avg long run

15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.

Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage

Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage

1978 Cross Country season

Sept 5-11 105 miles

9/5 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles

9/6 T - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles

9/7 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles

9/8 T - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles

9/9 F - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400 jog PM 4 miles

9/11 S - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles

Sept 12-18 108 miles

9/12 M - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles

9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy

9/14 W - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles

9/16 F - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles

9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy

9/18 S - AM 13 miles

Sept 19-25 110 miles

9/19 M - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles

9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles

9/21 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles

9/23 F - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total

9/25 S - AM 11 miles easy PM 2 miles with stairs

Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles

9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)

9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown

9/28 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles

9/30 F - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown

10/2 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles

10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown

10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles

10/7 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy

10/9 S - AM 14 miles (around the Butte)

Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles

10/10 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy

10/12 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles

10/14 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown

10/16 S - AM 14 miles

Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles

10/17 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill, 4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown

10/19 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.

10/21 F - AM 6 miles, sore tendon

10/22 S - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles still painful, but better

10/23 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles

10/24 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown

10/26 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles and strides

10/28 F - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy

10/30 S - AM 15 miles (note: had Alberto run his usual 13-14 miles he wouldn’t have made 100, LOL!)

Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles

10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown

11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown

11/2 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330

11/4 F - AM 4 miles PM rest

11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)

11/6 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles

11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown

11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)

11/9 W - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown

11/11 F - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown

11/13 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles

11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30

11/15 T - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles

11/17 T - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles

11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile

11/19 S - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/20 S - AM 4 miles

Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles

11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.

11/22 T - 5 miles

11/23 W - 5 miles

11/24 T - 4 miles

11/25 F - 5 miles

11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)

11/27S - 4 miles

FROM THE TODD WILLIAMS TRAINING THREAD

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run: 12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts: Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace.

Interesting

Alberto Salazar

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.

Todd Williams

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles.

Your post is correct, and it was based off a total mileage day. That long run theory came from Jim Cooper, an 8:19 steepler guy in his day.

That's gotta be Salazar's log from 77 not 78 as he won NCAA's in 78. Mon Nov.21 was in 1977.

drsmrtypnts wrote:

Just wondering if anyone (maybe Malmo) has suggestions on how you would fit the long run into training for races 50mi and up. I've had weeks where my LR was 50% of my weekly mileage, but those weeks do hurt!

If I were going to get serious about an ultra I would adopt Ken young's old "Collapse Point" theory and not worry much at all about really long runs.

Young's theory, which he advanced in the 70s, was that in order to race well at any distance you needed to average 1/3 of the distance per day for at least ten weeks, I think it was ten, prior to the race. Young actually had a different way of expressing this but Joe Henderson worked it out to 1/3 of the distance per day.

For fifty miles, you'd want to do at least 17 miles a day, for 100 km, 20 miles a day. Now that's what I'd do. I know that most people now don't want to do that sort of mileage.

If i were not going to do the big miles, I would do moderate miles but race a lot, preferably a good number of marathons. That worked very well for cavin Woodward who set the world record for 100 miles on the track but rarely did much more than 70 mpw. But he might run three marathons in a month at times and they weren't jogs.

runnerguy0990 wrote:

I heard somewhere that malmo was against long runs

If you heard 'somewhere' that I was against long runs, it might help me if you would tell me where 'somewhere' is?