Aris and FM are bad for HS XC

I get your point. But you come across as a disgruntled postal worker.

Here in CA is all about State. NXN is not the focus at all. So it's not everyone, that's just one team's approach.

- I second "The Donger." We keep the mileage reasonable, 50-55 for the ladies 60-65 for the guys over the summer. Obviously not everyone is able to run the full workouts but this is what we shoot for.

Maybe hit the return key every once in a while in the future.

Don't know the guy, so can't comment.

But what is this magical "senior in college" training you speak of that will beat the stuffing out of my kids? I think they could probably use a bit stuffing beat out of them to preempt Thanksgiving.

Every time I ferret out the originator of posts like these, two things turn out to be true.1) "National Caliber" is a generous term. 2) It's a pot calling kettle black situation as far as long term development of athletes goes. The basher has a worse record than the guy he is criticizing.You can say that kids should not peak in high school but you better be able to prove that yours don't either before shooting off your mouth. Being a has been is better than being a never was.

Do you actually know FM's training? I'd like to see a week-to-week workout schedule...because Aris doesn't talk about it. I saw him speak & thought he was VERY vague about his team. Nothing about mileage. Nothing about workouts. He said his team did nothing different than anyone else...except by into his system.

He did, however, speak about olympic lifting & I suspect this helps his team A LOT. I was at our state XC meet & watched the difference between the top runners & then everyone else, and it was muscle development (with, of course, aerobic conditioning).

Opps. "...BUY into his system."

I would suspect that allowing 7th and 8th graders on your team will make a massive difference for HS girls' teams. If the typical girl peaks physically as a 10th grader that means they are only on their 2nd season of XC in most states. In NY they could be in their 4th year of XC. That's a substantial difference.

When an 8th grader and a transfer are your 1-2 punch, that's a gift most schools simply never get.

aris has said that his elite boys run 60-65 miles a week and his elite girls run 50-55 miles a week. They run more during the championship part of the season and less during the other times of the season. They obviously do a lot of weight training because of how big they are and that's why they're good.

Can't speak to the training methods... but having your kids skip or intentionally DNF the State Meet is lame. If you can't commit to the State Meet, then don't race at Sectionals.

If anything, high school kids should be run into the ground more. Most people want to maximize their long term earning potential. To make any sort of income running as a professional, you need to run at least 13:20/27:30/2:12. The fifth runner on York or FM is physically incapable of that. They are good enough though to get a full scholarship to college. That in itself can be worth $200,000 (i.e. greater than many of these 'professional' runners), and if accepted to a college that one could not accepted to on academics alone (Stanford, Michigan, Virginia) will lead to increased salaries for a lifetime. You aren't going to be a professional runner, so who cares about long-term development; don't sacrifice your life to go to some crappy school (Oregon, Colorado, Oklahoma State) for a pipe dream.

Where is the evidence that running higher mileage at a younger age decreases one's ultimate performance? Are there studies or books where I can learn more about this? If this is true, imagine how good the Kenyans would be if they didn't run to school throughout childhood- and if they did not have to do all that early running and thereby harm their long-term development.

A lot of Kenyans don't run to school. It was really just a few of them who did, and it became "common knowledge."

Here's a challenge: name a few high school runners who did mega-miles (or mega-intervals for that matter) in high school who had college/pro success.

Eva N wrote:

Can't speak to the training methods... but having your kids skip or intentionally DNF the State Meet is lame. If you can't commit to the State Meet, then don't race at Sectionals.

Do you know what happened to the two FM boys that didn't finish at States?

Saw two of them at the mile mark and only one finished. Was it a plan to only run part of the race? That would be a shame. Some other kid would love to have been in the race, I'm sure.

asdfdsfdsasdsddff wrote:

A lot of Kenyans don't run to school. It was really just a few of them who did, and it became "common knowledge."

Here's a challenge: name a few high school runners who did mega-miles (or mega-intervals for that matter) in high school who had college/pro success.

Ryun and Ritz come to mind. Lindgren ran a lot in high school as well I believe.

The debate about training loads in high school is an interesting one. The way I see it, if these national caliber programs like FM and York are actually beating these kids into the ground, then how do they race so well? Over-training has a massively negative impact on your race results. If there's a burnout factor with those programs, then it's most likely mental rather than physical.

I think it's far more likely that these coaches are simply taking less talented kids and training them more effectively than their counterparts. When everyone gets to the college level, that training gap starts to vanish, and the more talented kids start to take over.

Surprised wrote:

Do you know what happened to the two FM boys that didn't finish at States?

Saw two of them at the mile mark and only one finished. Was it a plan to only run part of the race? That would be a shame. Some other kid would love to have been in the race, I'm sure.

I have no idea. However... two guys in a field of 108 DNFed due to "injury". The odds of them randomly being from the same three-person contingent are 1,926-1 against. So it's a good bet that it was intentional. And, as you said, a shame.

3 boys started for fm. Ryan and Walters stepped off the course well before half way, nursing injury and saving themselves for future racing potentially. Perry raced the whole race and finished 12th. The next boy after Walters who'd have gone to states if not one or the other fm boys who dropped out would have been another fm boy, Geehrer i believe. No harm done by 2 smart kids who gave it a try at states but acted with their team in mind. The plan was for them to give it a try because it was states and that they qualified for it, but to cease running if at risk of further injury aggravation on a very tough course.

Manlius has been at the top for a long time now. You'd think that if Aris is the user/abuser that you describe, you'd at least hear from a few FM runners over the years telling stories of their horrific high school experiences. Where are they? Personally, I just think he's a master coach.

Where are they? "

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Well, maybe they are stupified as to why they aren't doing well in college and they don't want to talk? On a serious note I do wish all FM post grads well it's just that you gave it all to this HS and you can't get it done in Div.1

I know a guy that ran for York. He qualified for FL Nationals. He ran 100+ mpw some weeks in High School.

He told me that Newton told him and his teammates to understate their mileage when talking to coaches, reporters, etc.

I think the same thing occurs at FM, CBA, Arcadia, etc. They basically don't count the w/u, c/d mileage. That could easily be 4 - 6 miles per day, 6 days a week.

All of that said, my buddy was well prepared for college running while the rest of us had a more difficult transition to higher mileage and higher intensity. It's just that he hasn't progressed much since HS.

I think that's fine. He got into a great school and got some $. He's not going pro. Everyone wins.

As far as I'm concerned, if Aris or Newton can get a bunch of kids to buy into their training, kudos to them. It's not like these kids would have magically been found and given an opportunity to develop. They would have never made it to the next level. No harm, no foul.