Ryan Hall=Joan Benoit Samuelson?

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bootsie wrote:

"Yes, you nailed it. Ryan Hall has had an INCREDIBLE career."

"Incredible" is not an accurate description of Hall's career. He set one American record. He's had a few top 5 finishes in major marathons. His Olympics have been mediocre (or awful). He has dnf'd more than any other elite I can think of in recent memory. Now MEB has had an incredible career. Let's reserve the accolade for those who truly fit the bill.

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rojo wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics. Samuelson, coming off knee surgery two weeks prior, qualified for the team and the won the Gold three months later.

Then there's this...

"She would only break 2:36 once again in her career – and that didn’t happen for another six years (2:26:54 in Boston in 1991)."

First of all 4th at Boston in an incredibly tight finish between 2nd and 4th is not something to be so easily dismissed. Secondly, what about '88 and '91 New York? Last I checked 2:33 and 2:36 were under 2:36 and 3rd and 6th seem pretty elite to me.


If you can say Ryan Hall and Joanie are equal, I think we might as well just say everyone else is equal too as it's a slippery slope to giving the same status to any marathon finisher...or DNF apparently.

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FIrst a correction. Our results database was missing the 2:33. I looked at another database and she also did run 2:32:20 in 1992 so we've changed the article to say she only ran under 2:32 (not 2:36) once again.

The article is pretty clear. We're not saying that Ryan's DNF is the equivalent of an Olympic gold. Nor are we saying his 10th in 2008 is an Olympic gold.

We're simply saying they are equal in the sense they were great up until 28 or 29 and then not nearly as good. Yes 4th in Boston isn't bad but the facts are she only once ran within 11 minuts of her 2:21:21 pb after the age of 28.

So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985.

The biggest difference is Joanie could run 11 minutes off her pb and almost make another Olympic team in 1992. Ryan can't.

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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LRC visitor wrote:
"Even more than that, she was the epitome of what a distance runner should be, and what tens of thousands of competitive runners at all levels aspire to. She was completely committed to the pursuit of excellence. She was incredibly competitive. She was laser focused. She was absolutely determined not to be deterred by obstacles in her path, even seemingly huge ones. She was tough as nails. She was a winner."

Unfortunately, Ryan Hall is none of those. He is obviously an extremely talented athlete who had some outstanding performances. But he was never able to put one together on the big stage. The closest he came was his pr in Boston, which was clearly an outstanding race. But it was just as clearly massively wind-aided. More importantly, it was a time, not a championship. And he has never come close to it since, in any sense. His career is littered with did-not-finish's, did-not-start's, a multitude of excuses why, abandonment of anything even resembling competent coaching, many poor performances, and frankly bizarre behavior.

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sorry for the analogy, but... wrote:

rojo, i almost never agree with the stuff you write.

"So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985."

Hall's struggles are not unprecedented - TRUE. Hall is a giant head case - TRUE. Maybe Joanie was a head case if she couldn't figure it out pyschologically? It's a huge huge part of being a successful athlete - the mind

If you cannot see this, you are blind. I'm sorry. I will never back down on this point. I am the same high school class as Hall and I remember saying how much of a head case he was when i was 17. As a pimply little kid I could tell that his mind was his weakest element of his talent, and he'd need to figure it out to succeed more than his freakish talent.

Ryan Hall is, and has always been, a head case. he is essentially the Bill Walton of distance running. just listen to him. he's a lost little puppy...the thing he needs most as an athlete is structure. he needs a coach who understands his body and reaction to training stimulus, but at the same time isn't afraid to call him out for being a little baby and make him work or stop whining or rest more or just get through a period of unknown. He needs someone to encourage him through times of doubt or discomfort or reinforce him when things are going well. i think Hall had that great race in Boston and then his own head had too much time to screw everything up. he needed a great coach.

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GlobalView wrote:

Rojo, I'm not saying that Ryan Hall hasn't done great things. I'm not saying that I disagree with the original idea that marathoners at the top level have short-term careers. I'm not saying that they're both not "free spirited runners". But when you do the head-to-head career comparison, it's a huge edge to JBS:

Olympic Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
Pan-American Games Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
World Best Time for the Marathon: 1-0
Major Marathon Wins: 3-0
American (Road) Record Performances: 15-3 (see ARRS)
Olympic Trials Marathon Wins: 1-1

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rojo wrote:

[quote]sorry for the analogy, but... wrote:

rojo, i almost never agree with the stuff you write.

"So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985."

Hall's struggles are not unprecedented - TRUE. Hall is a giant head case - TRUE. Maybe Joanie was a head case if she couldn't figure it out pyschologically? It's a huge huge part of being a successful athlete - the mind

If you cannot see this, you are blind. I'm sorry. I will never back down on this point. I am the same high school class as Hall and I remember saying how much of a head case he was when i was 17. As a pimply little kid I could tell that his mind was his weakest element of his talent, and he'd need to figure it out to succeed more than his freakish talent.

Ryan Hall is, and has always been, a head case. he is essentially the Bill Walton of distance running. just listen to him. he's a lost little puppy...the thing he needs most as an athlete is structure. he needs a coach who understands his body and reaction to training stimulus, but at the same time isn't afraid to call him out for being a little baby and make him work or stop whining or rest more or just get through a period of unknown. He needs someone to encourage him through times of doubt or discomfort or reinforce him when things are going well. i think Hall had that great race in Boston and then his own head had too much time to screw everything up. he needed a great coach.

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Halleluja wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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Apples and oranges.

Ryan Hall's AR is 2:04, when Joan Benoit won her Gold Medal, she ran 2:24. Yes, that is a difference of 20min, or 4 miles.

In other words - it's not even the same sport.

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Thank goodness for sense wrote:

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Halleluja wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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Apples and oranges.

Ryan Hall's AR is 2:04, when Joan Benoit won her Gold Medal, she ran 2:24. Yes, that is a difference of 20min, or 4 miles.

In other words - it's not even the same sport.

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I admire and respect Joanie and all but the insults directed at Hall are completely unjustified. People on this thread are trying to say that a 2h 21 min marathon runner is better than a 2h 04 min runner which is beyond ridiculous.

Hall has had to compete in athletic open competition (in an era with a greater talent pool i.e. numerous E Africans training like animals), not some sub category competition where the very best are excluded just to allow another competition to take place. As you say, it is not even the same sport and the two runners are of completely different statuses.

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jjjjjj wrote:

Don't give us the racial talk about Kenyans and Ethiopians. The sport moves on and European and American runners for a long time ceded the podium to them without making any significant effort to get there out of either better things to do or an inferiority complex, which you only feed with all this sports gene talk and best white this and that...... In Joanie's era, the best American and European male runners were competing against African runners and sometimes losing to them, sometimes beating them, more often than not winning. The American and European performances got a lot worse from that time on. Steve Jones with his 1:01:xx first half at Chicago back around 1985 would have been competitive today. To this day, as you know, a white runner owns the top three times in the women's marathon. At 2:21:21, Joanie would be competitive in virtually every marathon today.... My question to them was why American male distance runners weren't doing well.

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