Ryan Hall=Joan Benoit Samuelson?

This is so true. But then Meb's amazing career would not fit the original assertion that a modern marathoner can run be amongst the world's best only for a shortish period of time, but then he tipped his hand by saying that Joanie had it a lot easier back in her day than Hall does now -- as any African and even Japanese competition was non-existent for her. So if one is to use an "=" sign as Wejo did, my advice is not to use it at all if you're going to subsequently change the equation with "yeah buts" and "but ifs". Maybe Wejo should've included the dreaded asterisk in his equation, as well?

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bootsie wrote:

"Yes, you nailed it. Ryan Hall has had an INCREDIBLE career."

"Incredible" is not an accurate description of Hall's career. He set one American record. He's had a few top 5 finishes in major marathons. His Olympics have been mediocre (or awful). He has dnf'd more than any other elite I can think of in recent memory. Now MEB has had an incredible career. Let's reserve the accolade for those who truly fit the bill.

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Rojo makes the point that Joan Samuelson faced virtually no African competition, but fails to appreciate that the non-African competition was much better then than it is now. Grete Waitz, Ingrid Kristiansen, and Rosa Mota, to name the 3 most obvious examples, were great competitors whose best performances still hold up well to this day.

I would grant that women's marathoning has gotten a lot deeper, but still, I believe that Samuelson in her prime would still be a favorite for a marathon medal in the current era. It's not like her 2:21 PR would put her at a disadvantage. Her 1984 Olympic victory in warm Los Angeles in 2:24:52, featuring a long solo breakaway, was a formidable performance that would still be difficult for today's top women to match.

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rojo wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics. Samuelson, coming off knee surgery two weeks prior, qualified for the team and the won the Gold three months later.

Then there's this...

"She would only break 2:36 once again in her career – and that didn’t happen for another six years (2:26:54 in Boston in 1991)."

First of all 4th at Boston in an incredibly tight finish between 2nd and 4th is not something to be so easily dismissed. Secondly, what about '88 and '91 New York? Last I checked 2:33 and 2:36 were under 2:36 and 3rd and 6th seem pretty elite to me.


If you can say Ryan Hall and Joanie are equal, I think we might as well just say everyone else is equal too as it's a slippery slope to giving the same status to any marathon finisher...or DNF apparently.

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FIrst a correction. Our results database was missing the 2:33. I looked at another database and she also did run 2:32:20 in 1992 so we've changed the article to say she only ran under 2:32 (not 2:36) once again.

The article is pretty clear. We're not saying that Ryan's DNF is the equivalent of an Olympic gold. Nor are we saying his 10th in 2008 is an Olympic gold.

We're simply saying they are equal in the sense they were great up until 28 or 29 and then not nearly as good. Yes 4th in Boston isn't bad but the facts are she only once ran within 11 minuts of her 2:21:21 pb after the age of 28.

So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985.

The biggest difference is Joanie could run 11 minutes off her pb and almost make another Olympic team in 1992. Ryan can't.

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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I never tried to say that Ryan Hall was equal to Joanie in terms of being a trailblazer in the sport and helping bring women's runnign to new heights.

I just dont think Hall is some crazy headcase.

Obviously Joanie lost much of her 30s as she had her first child in October of 1987 and another 3 years later. That's why I compared what they did before they were 30.

I got a nice email from a LRC visitor who was very upset by the comparison and he said he agrees with us 9 out of 10 times. He wrote,

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LRC visitor wrote:
"Even more than that, she was the epitome of what a distance runner should be, and what tens of thousands of competitive runners at all levels aspire to. She was completely committed to the pursuit of excellence. She was incredibly competitive. She was laser focused. She was absolutely determined not to be deterred by obstacles in her path, even seemingly huge ones. She was tough as nails. She was a winner."

Unfortunately, Ryan Hall is none of those. He is obviously an extremely talented athlete who had some outstanding performances. But he was never able to put one together on the big stage. The closest he came was his pr in Boston, which was clearly an outstanding race. But it was just as clearly massively wind-aided. More importantly, it was a time, not a championship. And he has never come close to it since, in any sense. His career is littered with did-not-finish's, did-not-start's, a multitude of excuses why, abandonment of anything even resembling competent coaching, many poor performances, and frankly bizarre behavior.

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I enjoyed this aricle on Samuelson:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1917&dat=19881104&id=c3QhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4IgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1018,1382183&hl=en

She often ran like Hall does - on feel. "I will go out and run the way I feel", she said according to the NY Times. That's what Hall has always done.

rojo, i almost never agree with the stuff you write.

"So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985."

Hall's struggles are not unprecedented - TRUE. Hall is a giant head case - TRUE. Maybe Joanie was a head case if she couldn't figure it out pyschologically? It's a huge huge part of being a successful athlete - the mind

If you cannot see this, you are blind. I'm sorry. I will never back down on this point. I am the same high school class as Hall and I remember saying how much of a head case he was when i was 17. As a pimply little kid I could tell that his mind was his weakest element of his talent, and he'd need to figure it out to succeed more than his freakish talent.

Ryan Hall is, and has always been, a head case. he is essentially the Bill Walton of distance running. just listen to him. he's a lost little puppy...the thing he needs most as an athlete is structure. he needs a coach who understands his body and reaction to training stimulus, but at the same time isn't afraid to call him out for being a little baby and make him work or stop whining or rest more or just get through a period of unknown. He needs someone to encourage him through times of doubt or discomfort or reinforce him when things are going well. i think Hall had that great race in Boston and then his own head had too much time to screw everything up. he needed a great coach.

many say john wooden's (ucla) greatest achievement as a coach was to keep walton from screwing things up for himself.

here's bill walton reflecting on his coach,
"But at practice, he was a tiger, always on edge, always barking at us, pacing, pacing. He was a masterful coach. By the time the game came around, we couldn't wait to play. He always had us psychologically ready to play. He was a masterful psychologist. He knew how to push all the right buttons, how to get people to play better than they could actually play. Some coaches tear people down. He built confidence in everybody."



So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985.

Rojo, I'm not saying that Ryan Hall hasn't done great things. I'm not saying that I disagree with the original idea that marathoners at the top level have short-term careers. I'm not saying that they're both not "free spirited runners". But when you do the head-to-head career comparison, it's a huge edge to JBS:

Olympic Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
Pan-American Games Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
World Best Time for the Marathon: 1-0
Major Marathon Wins: 3-0
American (Road) Record Performances: 15-3 (see ARRS)
Olympic Trials Marathon Wins: 1-1

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sorry for the analogy, but... wrote:

rojo, i almost never agree with the stuff you write.

"So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985."

Hall's struggles are not unprecedented - TRUE. Hall is a giant head case - TRUE. Maybe Joanie was a head case if she couldn't figure it out pyschologically? It's a huge huge part of being a successful athlete - the mind

If you cannot see this, you are blind. I'm sorry. I will never back down on this point. I am the same high school class as Hall and I remember saying how much of a head case he was when i was 17. As a pimply little kid I could tell that his mind was his weakest element of his talent, and he'd need to figure it out to succeed more than his freakish talent.

Ryan Hall is, and has always been, a head case. he is essentially the Bill Walton of distance running. just listen to him. he's a lost little puppy...the thing he needs most as an athlete is structure. he needs a coach who understands his body and reaction to training stimulus, but at the same time isn't afraid to call him out for being a little baby and make him work or stop whining or rest more or just get through a period of unknown. He needs someone to encourage him through times of doubt or discomfort or reinforce him when things are going well. i think Hall had that great race in Boston and then his own head had too much time to screw everything up. he needed a great coach.

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GlobalView wrote:

Rojo, I'm not saying that Ryan Hall hasn't done great things. I'm not saying that I disagree with the original idea that marathoners at the top level have short-term careers. I'm not saying that they're both not "free spirited runners". But when you do the head-to-head career comparison, it's a huge edge to JBS:

Olympic Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
Pan-American Games Medals: 1-0 (Gold)
World Best Time for the Marathon: 1-0
Major Marathon Wins: 3-0
American (Road) Record Performances: 15-3 (see ARRS)
Olympic Trials Marathon Wins: 1-1

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yes. i think you have to rip joanie...a bit more mildly than hall, but rip away.

in the end, i guess we agree on this

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rojo wrote:

[quote]sorry for the analogy, but... wrote:

rojo, i almost never agree with the stuff you write.

"So many people act like Hall's struggles are unprecendented or that he's some giant head case. We're just saying, "Stop with the nonsense" - Joanie struggled in many of the same ways after 1985."

Hall's struggles are not unprecedented - TRUE. Hall is a giant head case - TRUE. Maybe Joanie was a head case if she couldn't figure it out pyschologically? It's a huge huge part of being a successful athlete - the mind

If you cannot see this, you are blind. I'm sorry. I will never back down on this point. I am the same high school class as Hall and I remember saying how much of a head case he was when i was 17. As a pimply little kid I could tell that his mind was his weakest element of his talent, and he'd need to figure it out to succeed more than his freakish talent.

Ryan Hall is, and has always been, a head case. he is essentially the Bill Walton of distance running. just listen to him. he's a lost little puppy...the thing he needs most as an athlete is structure. he needs a coach who understands his body and reaction to training stimulus, but at the same time isn't afraid to call him out for being a little baby and make him work or stop whining or rest more or just get through a period of unknown. He needs someone to encourage him through times of doubt or discomfort or reinforce him when things are going well. i think Hall had that great race in Boston and then his own head had too much time to screw everything up. he needed a great coach.

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I'm not sure if you know this but professional running, as it is known now, was nonexistent when Samuelson ran. There were nowhere near the amount of marathons, especially to make money at, as there are now.

You seem to have this need to bring down not only one of the greatest, but one of the most inspirational, runners of all time. I have no personal issue with Ryan Hall, seems like a great guy, had great range, and ran some fast times. He had serious flaws in championship racing, however, and had a very hard time breaking the tape in his marathon career.

In defending that you cannot pretend that Samuelson had "equal issues." She not only won The Olympic Games, but did it under circumstances that if Hall had encountered, he would most likely not have made the team. The original "facts" of the article were contrived and you've already had to backpedal on that. Samuelson has an incredible non marathon resume. You can't hold that against her saying she didn't run enough fast marathons. Even so, I believe she has five more wins than Hall does.

As for longevity, she ran 2:26 for a very tightly contested 4th 12 years, I'll repeat, 12 years after winning her first Boston.

Defending Hall is fine; he is over criticized. trying to drag someone as prolific as Samuelson to make that point is just silly though.

Don't give us the racial talk about Kenyans and Ethiopians. The sport moves on and European and American runners for a long time ceded the podium to them without making any significant effort to get there out of either better things to do or an inferiority complex, which you only feed with all this sports gene talk and best white this and that. As for Hall, he ran 2:06:17 on a legit, very fast course with pacers the entire way, a great time, but let's not say he is a 2:04:58 marathoner when there was a huge wind at his back that day. In Joanie's era, the best American and European male runners were competing against African runners and sometimes losing to them, sometimes beating them, more often than not winning. The American and European performances got a lot worse from that time on. Steve Jones with his 1:01:xx first half at Chicago back around 1985 would have been competitive today. To this day, as you know, a white runner owns the top three times in the women's marathon. At 2:21:21, Joanie would be competitive in virtually every marathon today, and remember that the financial incentives weren't as spectacular back then and she stopped to have a family at the height of her career. In fall 1987 at my college convocation, she appeared alongside Roger Bannister and her family (all super nice) and it did appear as if she had retired already. My question to them was why American male distance runners weren't doing well.

Hall is an amazing Time Trial runner. The time seems more important to him than winning. Now that he is struggling to run fast times, he has no running fire at all. This is not a slam, it is just the way I see him as a runner.

In contrast, Joanie was a winner. Her fast times came from winning, not from chasing a time. Meb is also that kind of runner. Somehow with much slower times, he wins and places high much more often.

Look, the reason Hall gets so much criticism, seriously, is his failure to communicate. Up until Tuesday of last week, he had offered absolutely no valid explanation for his long list of disappointments of the past several years. If he had, his career could have been viewed more for its considerable achievements and less for its conspicuous failures.

Joan, by the way, didn't have those failures. I'm not sure why she's even brought into a discussion of Hall. This thread is not a proud moment.

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Halleluja wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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Apples and oranges.

Ryan Hall's AR is 2:04, when Joan Benoit won her Gold Medal, she ran 2:24. Yes, that is a difference of 20min, or 4 miles.

In other words - it's not even the same sport.

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Thank goodness for sense wrote:

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Halleluja wrote:

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False Equivalence wrote:

Joan Samuelson won an Olympic Gold. Last I checked Ryan Hall DNFd in his last Olympics.

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Apples and oranges.

Ryan Hall's AR is 2:04, when Joan Benoit won her Gold Medal, she ran 2:24. Yes, that is a difference of 20min, or 4 miles.

In other words - it's not even the same sport.

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I admire and respect Joanie and all but the insults directed at Hall are completely unjustified. People on this thread are trying to say that a 2h 21 min marathon runner is better than a 2h 04 min runner which is beyond ridiculous.

Hall has had to compete in athletic open competition (in an era with a greater talent pool i.e. numerous E Africans training like animals), not some sub category competition where the very best are excluded just to allow another competition to take place. As you say, it is not even the same sport and the two runners are of completely different statuses.

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I agree with earlier comments that the comparison was made more to strike a nerve and elicit strong opinions as opposed to anyone truly believing they are equals. So now I am just feeding into this by responding but... Yes they had similarities in terms of when they peaked but the problem with going beyond that is the main reason a runner turns professional is to COMPETE and to WIN. Joanie was/ is a competitor and a winner. Ryan ran great times that never put him on the podium.

I think to say she had it easy because she was a pioneer is kind of insulting as her times still hold up today. Only 2 American women have ever run faster and one was by 7 seconds (Flanagan.) She still has 3 of the top 10 fastest finishes of all-time American women and only 22 women total in the past 30 years have run more than a minute faster than her (and that list includes convicted and suspected dopers.) Just think of the advances in technology and science that have occurred in the past 30 years and how much money Nike and others pour into runners to make them run faster. Who knows what Joanie would be like if she was in her prime now and able to benefit from this - maybe she would be running sub 2:20 or maybe not but the fact is her times are even more amazing because they did occur that long ago.

Also I haven't been a frequent visitor to these message boards in the past and hate to go there but the comparison just seemed a bit sexist. Why not make the comparison to other great male US marathoners in history. Recent posts have glorified Webb and Hall and now even a 2:10+ marathon time on a fast flat course for a fifth place finish yet if we want to have a critical opinion of Hall for ANY reason we also need to have one of Joanie. It really makes no logical sense.

But if we really want to compare it will be interesting to see the rest of Mr. Hall's pro career and then after. I wonder what sort of marathon times he'll be running when he is in his 50s. In terms of Joanie's male counterparts from the 80s it looks like Dick Beardsley last ran a marathon in 2008 at age 52 in 2:49:09. The next year at age 53 Joanie ran a 2:47:50.....

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jjjjjj wrote:

Don't give us the racial talk about Kenyans and Ethiopians. The sport moves on and European and American runners for a long time ceded the podium to them without making any significant effort to get there out of either better things to do or an inferiority complex, which you only feed with all this sports gene talk and best white this and that...... In Joanie's era, the best American and European male runners were competing against African runners and sometimes losing to them, sometimes beating them, more often than not winning. The American and European performances got a lot worse from that time on. Steve Jones with his 1:01:xx first half at Chicago back around 1985 would have been competitive today. To this day, as you know, a white runner owns the top three times in the women's marathon. At 2:21:21, Joanie would be competitive in virtually every marathon today.... My question to them was why American male distance runners weren't doing well.

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Why not just compare women to women and men to men?

I think just because both did something remarkable at roughly the same age doesn't mean they were equal.

Do not men and women develop at different rates?