Van Aaken and Harald Norporth training insights and

Antonio-san,

Hodgie-san Translated = Mr. Hodge.

"Van Ache" is my lame attempt at humor

Yes, but why the japanese suffix to = Mr Hodge ?? Why not Senor Hodge or Monsieur Hodge?? And why do you often answer in the style of "Hodgie-san say...." when you KNOW it should be "Hodgie-san sayS..."

I think I explained pretty well why you decided to use the Japanese version of your name (as opposed to other choices) and why you answer in the manner that you often do....yes?

(and I got your van Achen joke too and explained it to Antonio. Just trying to help you out Hodgie. I know you prefer short simple answers [aphorisms?], but sometimes a few extra words are needed for proper explanation, and that is where I come in. :-) )

learn something...

>

I think I explained pretty well why you decided to use the Japanese version of your name (as opposed to other choices) and why you answer in the manner that you often do....yes?<

Sir Lance,

You give me too much credit. I'm not really so clever, mainly just lazy.

But what's happened to that posting of Norpoth's training?

HRE

One part of the van Aaken philosophy – that you may read in his books and articles and teachings and that learn directly from van Aaken letters to me, is that as sport man we shall learn about all life aspects – not being a close mind and a runner addicted – a kind of an idiot that just trains, trains and nothing more.

Van Aaken he loved classic music – that I hate !, but he advises us to hear classic music as relax and sensibility target and also to learn all disciplines apart from sports connection. You need to be an OPEN MIND.

I myself i´m a great enthusiastic of arts, i´m an expert of cinema and modern music. I know the most remote band of America that you don´t imagine. I´m also a great fan of poetry and painting. I also have some knowledge among oriental philosophies and oriental religion – I know a lot from Hinduism to Buddhism to Zen Buddhism.

I could go on and on but this is not a post about myself and what I love.

One part of human knowledge is the share and knowledge with other human beings that have other ideas than us and other attitudes - no doubt. That´s why i´m curious how they train. It´s all part of human being knowledge, that´s not just that selfish idea to “use that” for our own profit.

Thus my friend – to become a “a better a strong runner” that doesn´t mean just to run fast, but also to be “equipped” to understand universal concepts.

So, my friend this all have to do with running and van Aakn and Norport training. How you will be able to undrestand Norport training out of an german context ?

Sir Lance-a-lot (another cultural reference)

Lancelot

Since 1975 – that I read Runner´s World magazine that I know who is Hodgie-san, that fantastic road runner, and also a train “animal”. So, I did ask that question using the same joke- pleasure method that I think he uses…

But thanks for your answer anyhow. I was jogging a while with Hodgie in the same spirit that Hodgie said van Achin. I love humour. One quality i´have not is to write short sentences. But I will try – in the Zen Style

“Some animals they cry but the man is only the one that laugh” – Antonio-zen

Now, you see the interest to laugh a lot (LOL) !

I also know that attitude from Master to Disciple. Since i´m an independent coach, and a free coach (ususaly ther´s no money involved) and since that after the “rite of passage” I accept to train all people that comes to me with that intention, and since I have more pleasure and my main motivation as a coach is to coach average runners, for me that´s more intersting to made a minute progress in a 14:00 to 17:00 runner than to advise Alberto Chaiça (the best coach that I advise actually) or 13:20 Fernando Couto that is an Seul Olympic runner that I did coach. Most of the people that I train they start as runners and they end as friends. And some of them they are coaches actually.

So I think that in some way I use that oriental relationship from master to disciple. I don´t fit perfect in modern professional coach system.

One othet detail from the oriental technique is that “to put in question” or as you say “to create situations where the student arrives at understanding through his own experience.”.

I know that oriental technique also. You put a monk in the middle of a circle of other monks and they ask hard questions in the way to contradict your own concepts. I don´t use that because I have a compromise with myself that´s is in any circumstance to say the true. But I use that occidental technique that´s “brainstorm”. To ask hard questions to see what´s the effect in the other. That´s also from Buddhism and Zen.

See how many can´t stand my discussions here in let´sRun, and see that I use a special technique to disagree with people that´s to take out their own ideas and take the discussion to an impass.

What got this to do with van Aaken ? All have to do with van Aaken ! But you neeed to wait a oment for Norport training – I´m not a post professional you see…

Ghost

Eventually it will be intersting to do a thread t article about “where they are what are doing the past runner´s and the Portuguese ones that you quote. But that will take too much time and effort and i´m not yet ready.

But I try a little insight.

CARLOS LOPES – since he lose all his money one year after retiring from running, I know that with wrong investiments he did loose 200000 dollars in a single season, but he did win an “all life” salary from the Portuguese state that´s near 2500 dolares a month (!), he keeps on going, and actually you go to a small town some 50miles of the north of Lisbon and in the daily life routine we works in his own little cafeteria/restaurant serving coffee to the clients ! From times to times, he goes to television or public appearances, and he create a his own foundation that what´s to write a book about his life, and also is working in a Lisbon “Carlos Lopes Marathon” that first edition will take place in April in the next year. Anyhow, I don´t advise you to come – a very hilly course with no guarantee at all that the distance that´s accurate !

I garatee you that he doesn´t run a single step since 20 years ago !

FERNANDO MAMEDE – He also did lose all the money in wrong business investments, but as contrary to Lopes he is able to work in a large range of occupations, he did counsel avising in a county, and now he works for his team “Sporting” – the same from Lopes, Rui Silva, Castro´s brothers, as public relations. In 30 years of running at international class he never did an injury. Now he can´t do jogs because his knees they hurt a lot !

DOMINGOS and DIONISIO CASTRO – Domingos did yesterday NY marathon in 2:46 ! He was invited for the organisation because he did 2nd and 5th some years ago. Now he is retired from running and with his twin brother Dionisio the have a running team Castro´s Brothers Team -similar to american Hanson´s team (!) and they also are promoters of some road runs and as sport managers they work with football players and their contracts. They are very successful in their business. They don´t jog anymore.

CARLOS MONTEIRO – he still runs with 40 years old. Also Antonio Salvador (42 years old) and Mario Silva a 3:33 portuguese record (43 years old) they still run with good performances. Sometimes Mario Silva he is the best Portuguese in half marathons ! the only one that is able to follow the Kenyans. Catarino, of course., he is in the top actually. Some weeks ago in our road national champ. 1st that´s Manuel Magalhaes, 2nd “my” Alberto Chaiça and 3rd Paulo Catarino with 42 years old. Antonio Pinto he also try a come back with almost 39 years old and after serious injuries. This is one reason why most of the top Portuguese runners we don+t have a philosophy to stay training and jogging after competition retirement – that´s because we delay so much our careers at top level – some seems to start at his thirties – in a moment that foreign runners quit out. So, whene they retired they are tired, physical as phichological to keep on jooging for the wealth. We want to joy from the “lost time”. For me that´s very strange that most of the foreigns they project a career to finish in after whe they are 30 years old. That´s so strange for me.

CANARIO – he is retired and lives in Algarve working in tourism activity.

ANICETO SIMOES – Do you remember ? 13:21 and final 1976 5000m Olympics – he is a ery fat guy, he is retired from his clerk bank job, and helps Rui Silva coach. When he was a runner he ws able to drink an entire bottle of whisky (that he did often) and run in less than 14:00. Once I saw him drink 60 beers and go to run (that´s true) and he did win over Fernando Serrada. That´s not by chance that he did win over Lopes a couple of accasions. He starts training after military service with 26 years old ! I see him everyday in my local track. If you send me your e-mail I will send you some actual photos with me and him !

PAULO GUERRA – he hardly is able to less than 1:12 in the HMn, that’s what he did recently !

EDUARDO HENRIQUES – with 38 years old and after a serious injury after the last European cross that he was 3rd, behing ucranian Lebid and spein de la Ossa, he misses last summer road season completely , and being a his own TIR car wagon driver all over the Europe roads (!) he wants to come back.

ANTONIO LEITAO – 13:07, 20 years ago ! , an Olympic bronze, he is very sick with a liver blood disease. He seems very old and unhappy, but he is the fantastic human being he used to be. He needs to go to the hospital for blood transfusions every week.

JOAO CAMPOS – Do you remember him ? 3000m indoor world champion. He is very unhappy also, 2 marriages 2 divorces. I see him everyday, a few times I dinner with him. He is a great pall, but no lucky.

That´s true that before Lopes and Rosa Mota success when you did go to the streets and parks training you were offended by people saying “go to work you lazzy”. But that doesn´t exist no more actually.

About Portuguese diet – I doubt that I can answer you a complete answer since we are all different.

Well that´s a typical Mediterranean diet variant, with fish (code fish and sardines), meat (all types, red, chicken, pork), rice, potatoes, vegetables, soap, and bread olive oil, fruits (all kinds) and coffee as desert. Much of our food is fried. Most of us we drink wine – red wine. Milk and candies and deserts aren´t too much used and inout typical diet sugar isn´t present. Our food is really hot stuff- very caloric - 3 meals a day, not TV-soft meals, and not 4-6 times a day – just 3 timess a day mainly.

Mr. Mario Moniz Pereira, our dean coach he says if the diet interferes in human performance (he thinks that don´t), if so we haven´t good runners from all over the world. But he also says that the worst thing that´s to change from your diet profile. We Portuguese when we go to stays in foreign countries or to meetings or to other competitions – sometimes our Portuguese federation send a cook with the crew – to avoid undesirable “foreign” food that are quite strange to us.

Muito obrigado - Antonio!

The chronicles about the top Portuguese runners are fascinating.

I have some questions:

Many people say that top runners now are doped. I do not think this is necessarily true.

If you take runners like Lopes/Mamede and others, who ran before EPO was on the market, they were running faster than the best Portuguese can run these days.

Point two: I have the feeling that overall standards in Portugal are falling. The reason for this - I believe - is the same reason that afflicts most countries with higher standards of living - children and young people are getting softer, and no longer have the motivation to engage in a tough sport like distance running.

The Portuguese diet is one of the best in the world. Why - because it is a "balanced one" incorporating all the important nutrients which humans require.

One has the feeling that very few Portuguese runners are vegetarian, and this is because they eat meat occasionally, and the meat which is processed in Portugal probably has less chemicals and additives in comparison with the meat which is processed in North America and Canada - both of these countries having phenomenal cancer rates.

Portuguese eat less sweets and empty carbohydrates, so their overall health is probably pretty good. The olive oil and wine is good for the circulatory system and keeps cholesterol down.

What is the name of the small town where Carlos Lopes works, and the name of the cafe. Ghost will definitely make a stop there on his next visit to Portugal.

Question: how has the introduction of the Euro. had an impact on the economy of Portugal, and do most people there benefit from the Euro? Many people in countries like Greece and Spain, have actually suffered from the euro economy, because goods are more expensive but the salaries have stayed the same, meaning an erosion of disposable income.

Foreign runners keep on running for health, because health education is more stressed in Northern Europe and North America, compared with the Iberian countries. The irony is that people in the Iberian Peninsula generally live longer and enjoy better health than North Americans, and many factors contribute to this, including diet, family structure, and the way food is processed and used. In Portugal there is a greater availability of fresh fish and fruits and vegetables.

Many people suspected Paula Guerra was doped when he won those great cross country races and finished 3rd in the World Cross. But those are rumors only. Paulo still ran a 27:50 on the track for 10.000, and so he really proved he was world class on the cross country circuit.

Very few Portuguese immigrants in Canada run. They prefer to engage in football (soccer). Canada has a very poor running culture these days, and most runners who have ambition have to move to the U.S or Britain to improve.

The Canadian Federation does not support its athletes, and runners who go to the World Cross Country or World Half Marathon have to pay their own plane tickets!

Standards of living in Portugal (a country with the lowest unemployment in Europe) are improving so much, that most young people do not appear to be attrated to the sport of distance running. With this state of affairs persisting, I am pesimistic about the future of distance running in Portugal.

Greetings from Portugal

Im Not Mr Cabral - LOL

My name is Rodrigo Silva, I´m from Portugal, I´m a back of the pack guy, I respect a lot Mr Antonio Cabral - I dont know him - because I´ve learned a lot with him. I´m a big friend of several serious road runners, and I asked to 2 of them, Antonio Sousa - Mr Cabral knows him for sure, he was 11º in Frankfurth Marathon the other day - and Pedro Pessoa - Mr Cabral knows him too - why the overall standards in Portugal are falling, both answered the same way - not enough km/miles on the legs, lots of nosense interval trainning and speed trainning, from coachs with no experience but with lots of "american books in the head" and "the parents think that all the children now have asthma" LOL. I think that the food & diet have minor impact on the overall standarts.

Concerning the kids, well you know Figo, Rui Costa, Pauleta & Deco are million dolars soccer players, who wants to be like Carlos Lopes, Antonio Pinto - Antonio Who ????? or Rosa Mota ?

Things are changing in Portugal not for good !

Regards

and sorry about my english

Rodrigo

Rodrigo say:

>why the overall standards in Portugal are falling, both answered the same way - not enough km/miles on the legs, lots of nosense interval trainning and speed trainning, from coachs with no experience but with lots of "american books in the head" and "the parents think that all the children now have asthma"<

Which "American books" are popular in Portugal?

Norpoth's training out of a German context? Interesting idea. But then can we understand van Aaken at all outside of a German context? I do know that having read about van Aaken in German I find him about as understandable as I do in English, but I don't think that's what you're referring to.

HRE :

I don´t know if the German context is needed to understand Norpoth´s training, but I think it is impossible to understand van Aaken without this special context.

For someone who lives in Germany it is very interesting what

Mr. Cabral calls the German context.

Nice thread ..., thanks Mr. Cabral.

For me that´s very clear that each training method did born undrer a certain "context" and under a "certain running culture": Independently what´s the language in what you express your ideas, for the same concepts or similar contexts you use diffrent terminologies.

Ex: When you go to german they say "persistence" to what other call "endurance" and other call "aerobic runs" and other "steady state".

If you show me a monthly training schedule but you catch the all identification, just by doing a deep analisys in the tecnichal context most of the time i know where that comes from, what type runner, what´s the country, from what what decade, from what context, from what training school.

For me that´s just to cross the border and in spain all that´s different.

To be able to be TRANSCULTURAL, you need to get out of your confined cultural ideas, coming out from your social, religious, traditional, country or continental culture and civilisation and merge deep in all the rest. That´s first step. I consider myself a "world citizen" not a just human being that did born in Portugal from a portuguese family. That´s why i´m so curious about the other training methods, not to copy them, but to understand my own better.

But i´m running out from this thread issue ! (LOL).

Ghost

I don´t want to talk about politics or drugs - i´m not an expert in any of both, and politics that´s not this forum issue.

But about portuguese demographics. Portugal that´s a 10 million people. In 20 years (2 decades) we have just 1/2 of the young people population (from birth to 20 years old) than 20 years ago, despite the economy is better now than 20 years ago ! Since life-hope is longer now, each year we are an older and older country.

Actually we are the top 1 as oldest average population all over the world ! If our total population that grows - that´s mainly because since last decade it arrived to Portugal 300 thousand of Brazilian immigrants more 200 thousand from earlier portuguese colonies in Africa (Angola, Mozambique)and also 300 thousands of east european countries (ex-USSR) Ukrainians, Moldavians, Russians. The Brazilians the come here mainly because the language that´s the same. Most of ex-URSS are people with high degree of studies - academic degree - but since ther´s no work at all in that countries they come here to work as manual workers/hard jobs that portuguese don´t want to do !

With that scenario, how to you want to have a young generation of runner recruitment ? That´s impossible. As you said immigrants they are just concern to make some money and survive, not playing sports.

Secondly, i think that national federations that´s are past structures mainly, that were conceive more than 50 years ago and mostly that´s more and more outdated. The running sport, and athletics in general, that run faster to cahnge and transformation and that´s more dynamic than most of federative structures. We live in a running scenario that aren´t the federations no more that rules - are the agents, the managers, the sport marks. The portuguese federation have no autorithy to get a runner´s entry in any golden league meeting - just the runner´s agents.

Now add this to what Rodrigo Silva said - young people wants to be Figo or Deco or any other football player….

About Lopes and Mamede. I thik that they will win to any portuguese runner and most of the world top european runners and they will be still very competitive in world class events, despite actually there are a few that did best PBs than Lopes or Mamede.

Lopes also said that "the records are to broken, no big deal, one day someone will take my world records and my PBs out, but my titles no one no more can take me out".

Mamede did failed all big games but 2 decades ago he did sub 28:00 13 times ! I think that just Gebre did best. During 2 season he did win all 5000m international track runs that he did participate - including what´s now golden meetings.

That people weren´t professionals during all their career, they never did train in altitude, they never win so much money as they win actually. But most of the time they will never loose for Guerra or for Lebid or for Pinto or for Chema Martinez - whatever. That´s my opinion.

PS – I think that the Euro in short term that inflates a lot in all European economies, but that will be benefit in long term.

Greetings Hodgie-san

Mostly academic books and university papers because a lot of coachs came from University with new theorys and concepts for trainning, based in USA investigation.

In Portugal Jack Daniels , Higdon or Pfitzinger books are not popular, because pepole do not read ! not even in Portuguese ( LOL )

Regards

Rodrigo Silva

I hope I have not missed too much. I have been busy of late, coaching runners. So, what can we discuss and understand better? Tinman

We are dying to hear of HN's training. Bring it on.

Great thread.

Immense.

Harald Norporth trainig schedules ...NOT YET ! but....

Harald Norport, born in 1942/08/22

PB´s

5000m – 23:20.49, Munique 1973/07/12

Some Results and awards:

5000m, 1964 Toquio Olympics

1 Bob Schul, USA 13,48,8

2 Harald Norpoth, FRG 13,49,6

3 Bill Dellinger, USA 13,49,8

4 Michel Jazy, FRA 13,49,8

5 Kipchoge Keino KEN 13,50,4

6 Bill Baillie NZL 13,51,0

7 Nikolay Dutov URS 13,53,8

8 Thor Helland NOR 13,57,0

5000m, 1971 Helsinki European Champs

1 Juha Väätäinen FIN 13,32,6

2 Jean Wadoux FRA 13,33,6

3 Harald Norpoth FRG 13,33,8

4 Dane Korica YUG 13,35,0

5 Javier Alvarez SalgadoESP 13,35,8

6 Emiel Puttemans BEL 13,36,6

7 Lasse Virén FIN 13,38,6

8 Bronislav Malinowski POL 13,39,4

5000m, 1972 Munique Olympics

1 Lasse Virén FIN 13,26,4

2 Mohamed GammoudiTUN 13,27,4

3 Ian Stewart GBR 13,27,6

4 S. Prefontaine USA 13,28,4

5 Emiel Puttemans BEL 13,30,8

6 Harald Norpoth FRG 13,32,6

7 Per Halle NOR 13,34,4

8 Nikolay SviridovURS 13,39,4

INDOORS

1966 3000m European Champ

Dortmund/FRG (27.03.66, Westfalenhalle)

1 Harald Norpoth FRG 7:56.0

2 Siegfried Herrmann GDR 7:57.2

3 István Kiss HUN 8:05.0

4 Alan Simpson GBR 8:06.6

5 Werner Girke FRG 8:06.6

6 Anders Garderud SWE 8:12.8

1970 3000m European Champ

Wien/AUT (14./15.3.70, Stadthalle)

1 Richard Wilde GBR 7:47.0

2 Harald Norpoth FRG 7:49.6

3 Javier Alvarez ESP 7:52.6

4 Nikolay Sviridov URS 7:54.6

5 Werner Girke FRG 7:56.0

6 Emiel Puttemans BEL 7:57.0

7 Jorn Hansen DEN 7:58.2

8 Kazimierz Maranda POL 8:07.2

Harald Norporth in the Track & Field News rankings

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/index.jsp

1500m/mile

1966 – 5th

1968 – 4th

5000m

All time Most Points: 4th – Harald Norporth

All timer Most rankings: 1st Harald Norporth (9 annual nominations in 5000m top ten)

1964 – 3th

1965 – 8th

1966 – 4th

1967 – 3rd

1969 – 8th

1970 – 2th

1971 – 6th

1072 – 6th

1973 – 4th