Are Law Degrees Almost Useless?

Precious Roy wrote:

Most end up as personal injury/insurance defense lawyers or practice criminal law. I would agree that for the majority of these law grads it was a very bad decision to take on all that debt to grind it out doing car accidents or DUIs. But there are a fair number of these grads who were born to argue. They love being in front of a jury or arguing to a judge. They run out of their house at the crack of dawn and don't want to leave the office at the end of the day. The work is not glamorous, but it will pay the bills well enough.

What would earnings be for a lawyer with this type of practice, both immediately and in the long term?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Most end up as personal injury/insurance defense lawyers or practice criminal law. I would agree that for the majority of these law grads it was a very bad decision to take on all that debt to grind it out doing car accidents or DUIs. But there are a fair number of these grads who were born to argue. They love being in front of a jury or arguing to a judge. They run out of their house at the crack of dawn and don't want to leave the office at the end of the day. The work is not glamorous, but it will pay the bills well enough.

What would earnings be for a lawyer with this type of practice, both immediately and in the long term?

Personal injury law is a shameful business.

I think it was Elon Musk that said way too many smart/hard working people in this country choose law and finance. I agree.

Way too much talent wasting said talent in the legal profession. You would like to see the "stars" of our society doing something more.

Wow Unbelievable wrote:

I dunno about the big firms, but I know people who have gone to law school and just headed back to their hometowns, where there was a need for lawyers,, and made fortunes.

This describes my brother perfectly. He started a firm in a town of 2000 on the outskirts of a medium sized city. Gradually added staff and additional lawyers and got really good at a specialty defense (DUI). He now owns multiple Subway franchises and rental properties and is probably worth high 7 figures going into retirement.

During that career he was still able to play in two golf leagues per week, be active in civic groups and attend all of his kids' events.

athletic director wrote:

Could a JD get you in the door for an athletic director position?

Yes. The path is to work as a compliance intern in an athletic department. The bigger program the better. After graduation get an assistant AD job in compliance. Then eventually up to senior associate AD for compliance somewhere (this will likely require a series of moves or latching on to a rising young AD as trusted staff who moves with them). If you can go into a bad situation and make it right (like UNC, Louisville or when UW had major issues), are great with the fundraisers and donor meet and greets, you are then a reasonable candidate for AD jobs.

From what i've seen, law probably requires more of a plan than other professions if you want to be successful out of a lower ranked school. Just showing up at your local state law school with the general goal of becoming a lawyer is likely to not turn out well. If you show up at the same school knowing specifically that you want to become an expert on structuring real estate deals where properties with existing HUD financing are being acquired and rehabilitated using tax exempt bonds and 4% tax credits, you stand a good chance of doing well by entering that niche.

Ghremlin wrote:

Can someone explain the obsession with school prestige in law school? I suspect the top, say, 10% of grads at a lot of schools are compareable in skill to the average grad at a top school

I suspect that is entirely false.

The people who do best in average ranked schools are those who went into law school with a specific purpose that wasn't "Make a ton$ of money!!!!". If you have something you really care about, you will usually grind pretty well to achieve this goal.

I went to a state law school that wasn't super highly rated, probably top 50-60 when I went. I got a full scholarship. My only goal was to go into environmental impact litigation. I never even considered working big law or a huge paycheck. All my summer internships were environmental law and public interest related. No problem getting a good and fulfilling job based on my networking. I make fine money considering I do what I love. I also have a life and time to run. Similar story for my friends who wanted to do child advocacy, LGBT rights or legal aid type work. Public interest doesn't care about prestige as much as it cares about real skills.

The people do don't do well at average schools are the ones who take on debt thinking they will get a high paying job. My 1L year a guy wouldn't stop talking about making 200k when he graduated. He was always bragging about how he was going to get a job at S&C, Cravath or Weil and then live the high life. Last I heard about him, he was at some personal injury mill handling slip and fall cases.

I disagree with that you might as well not attend if you’re not going to a T14. You might not get the biglaw job in NYC but there are plenty of schools outside that group that have strong regional placement at mid-sized firms. Frankly that a region has expanding/contracting legal market might be most important factor to consider. At a t14 you avoid this because of their stronger national reputation.

https://www.lstreports.com/national/

Schools like Seton Hall, BC, Illinois, and Penn State have 80%+ LST employment rates (they discount underemployed grads). I’d guess they have a lot of success placing their grads in NYC, Boston, Chicago, and Philly.

I'm not a lawyer, but many of my friends are (most from top 20 schools). They see no reason to trust employment stats after being fooled once before. The investment remains foolish unless you attend a top school. Even then, it is no sure shot.

John Utah wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

What would earnings be for a lawyer with this type of practice, both immediately and in the long term?

Personal injury law is a shameful business.

I didn't ask for commentary about its moral status.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Precious Roy wrote:

Most end up as personal injury/insurance defense lawyers or practice criminal law. I would agree that for the majority of these law grads it was a very bad decision to take on all that debt to grind it out doing car accidents or DUIs. But there are a fair number of these grads who were born to argue. They love being in front of a jury or arguing to a judge. They run out of their house at the crack of dawn and don't want to leave the office at the end of the day. The work is not glamorous, but it will pay the bills well enough.

What would earnings be for a lawyer with this type of practice, both immediately and in the long term?

For personal injury plaintiff's work, It depends a lot on the jurisdiction and the extent of tort reform. If you are a solo personal injury plaintiff's lawyer, you will be doing well to make $35-50k your first few years on your own. if you get established and have a steady stream of referrals from an attorney who runs TV ads, you can do $100-200k a year. On the defense side, the run of the mill insurance defense attorney will make $50-70k the first few years. If they can develop a book of business and make partner, they can do about $120k-150k a year. The bigger your firm and the more business you have, the more you will make every year on the defense side.

Criminal defense depends on how the jurisdiction handles public defenders. Some jurisdictions hire out private attorneys to handle indignant defendants others have full time public defenders. New criminal defense attorneys who are not public defenders would be doing well to make $35-40k a year starting out. From there, it is just a question of whether they can build up a high volume practice or move up to higher profile cases with defendants that can actually pay the fees. But I would generally be surprised to find a run of the mill criminal defense attorney making over $100k very often over their career. Many will also do wills, divorces, PI etc. to get them over the hump. Public defender salaries are $40-60k. Federal public defenders make more ($40k starting out, $100k max), but the federal public defender service is fairly selective.

District attorneys have a similar income range as the federal public defenders ($40k to start, $100k max). AUSAs start in the $60-70k range and top out around $120k. But it is very competitive and your average tier 4 midpack law student will never get a shot at being a AUSA.

I really don't know anything about the legal profession but all of these arguments seem to be about getting that first job out of law school.

In most professions, if you get good at your job you can work your way up with experience.

Talent will rise regardless of where you were educated.

I think this is where the running analogy comes in.

A lot of top college runners went to top running colleges.

But now and then you get a Nick Symmonds that didn't go to a top track school and had a fantastic career because of his talent.

It's kind of crazy that your career in your 30s, 40s and 50s can rely so much on where you went to school in your 20s.

It seems that getting your foot in the right door early on must be the best path.

Then they choose from their own regardless of talent.

Connections over everything.

I studied for the real estate exam on my own, became a real estate broker and retired in my 60's.

At the time I looked into passing the bar exam and figured I could do the same thing, but much preferred real estate.

To me, going to a school would just be a waste of good time and money.

Why go to a school just to pass an exam?????

You can just study, pass the bar exam on your own, and then go to work to make a good living.

A much more viable option wrote:

I studied for the real estate exam on my own, became a real estate broker and retired in my 60's.

At the time I looked into passing the bar exam and figured I could do the same thing, but much preferred real estate.

To me, going to a school would just be a waste of good time and money.

Why go to a school just to pass an exam?????

You can just study, pass the bar exam on your own, and then go to work to make a good living.

Well, it depends on the state.

Very few states actually allow you to sit for the bar exam without going to law school. (Four states plus three which allow a sort of apprenticeship/law school hybrid). All require extensive apprenticeship/legal reader study program under the guidance of an experienced lawyer. There is a much lower pass rate for the bar (and then a reluctance to hire somebody who did not graduate from law school).

So, sure, it can be done, if you want to move to one of those 7 states and are capable of working or otherwise supporting yourself full time (without any student loans since you are not a student), read law in your spare time, and can find an experienced lawyer to supervise you.

Thanks, good information.

What are the job prospects for government (agency mostly) lawyers for somebody not from a T14 school?

I believe the agency lawyers in the line of work I do start ~70,000. I think it helps if you have some (minimal but some) experience in that line of work.

There was a FOIA officer position I recently saw for a University starting at 90,000 with a law degree listed as a preferred credential.

Ole Timer wrote:

I had a neighbor who got a law degree at Ohio State. She couldn't find a law job and ended up as an assistant manager at that Gap. I know Ohio State sucks but cripes.

I know a girl from the sticks that was a undergrad fellow into the federal gov’t, bloated ego.

She was allowed to get a law degree while working for a federal agency.

She now working in a federal govt office where women out number men 2 to 1. Don’t envy

She makes $154,000 per year but lives in Greater DC metro and is single so that money doesnt stretch.

She may end up with a barren womb, yet to be determined. So dont envy.

Also, once knew a black guy with a Chemistry degree making sandwiches but he had a gf supporting him.

100m wrote:

Ghremlin wrote:

Can someone explain the obsession with school prestige in law school? I suspect the top, say, 10% of grads at a lot of schools are compareable in skill to the average grad at a top school

I suspect that is entirely false.

It's not. A lot of people go to the main law school in their state instead of a perhaps higher-ranked law school because it better positions them for opportunities working in that state.

The takeaway seems to be:

If you want to work Big Law and make $275k + nearly immediately, you need to go L14. However, the working conditions are among the most soul crushing of any high-paying industry. Bye-bye 30s.

Other than that, there is respectable local/regional level employment for those who go top 50ish and do well.