Mandu wrote:
I'm honored that Malmo chimed in. I now have some cred when I discuss with coach.
I shouldn't be the one to give you cred. Anyone who has ever run should know that 5 x 1 mile at 5k pace is way too difficult, if not impossible to complete.
malmo wrote:
Mandu wrote:I'm honored that Malmo chimed in. I now have some cred when I discuss with coach.
I shouldn't be the one to give you cred. Anyone who has ever run should know that 5 x 1 mile at 5k pace is way too difficult, if not impossible to complete.
My friend has a daughter with a coach doing something similar. They did 4*1 mile last week at her TARGET 5k pace not even her current pace. Last week, she did the first 3 in 6:30 and the last one in 7:00.
Any advice I should give her to try to limit the damage? She is a high school freshman running 35-40 miles a week. They do this hard session + a tempo or hills another day + a race on the weekend. The rest is easy running.
in the same boat wrote:
My friend has a daughter with a coach doing something similar. They did 4*1 mile last week at her TARGET 5k pace not even her current pace. Last week, she did the first 3 in 6:30 and the last one in 7:00.
Any advice I should give her to try to limit the damage? She is a high school freshman running 35-40 miles a week. They do this hard session + a tempo or hills another day + a race on the weekend. The rest is easy running.
I couldn't imagine having high school freshmen, especially girls, running repeat miles in the first place. They have to be moving forward, and that means running faster. Have them do shorter repeats and as they progress, only then, lengthen them.
Chill malmo, coach mandu made an obvious typo, shoulda rote k repeats not mile repeats.
I was one of those runners. Intervals in general hammered me ( not me them ).
I finally realized that I did best running races for speed work. That meant early on that I was behind the curve but caught up and often passed interval trained runners as a season progressed.
It doesn't mean that I never did intervals but only on weeks where I wasn't racing and only one workout in a week. The rest of my training was easy running.
Joe Henderson wrote a book called Long Slow Distance back in the late 1960's. It talks about this subject.
EVA is another good author on the subject.
By the way, on just weekly racing and easy workouts I went from 4:50 to 4:30 (mile) in one season of all comers meet.
I have to agree that doing 5 x 1 mile at 5k pace is pretty ridiculous for such a young female runner. Even if you wanted to do the same volume, doing something like 20 x 400 at 5k pace is pushing it for someone who only runs 35 mpw. I would do a workout along the lines of 14-16 x 400 at 5k pace to goal 5k pace. You could then later move to 8-10 x 600 @ 5k pace and then 5-6 x 800 @ 5k pace as a peaking workout before championships season.
malmo wrote:
wtf coach? wrote:5 x mile at 5k pace is insane.
fan of US distance running wrote:
No it's not.
Yes it is. Ridiculously insane. Why on Earth would the OP insist on giving this workout to his runner?
4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace
6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k pace
these are workouts el guerrouj did regularly. obviously someone else isn't going to be doing them at the paces his group did, but they are manageable when done at one's own pace.
definitely not an insane workout. difficult, yes. but that is the point.
4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace
6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k pace
these are workouts el guerrouj did regularly. obviously someone else isn't going to be doing them at the paces his group did, but they are manageable when done at one's own pace.
definitely not an insane workout. difficult, yes. but that is the point.[/quote
NOT a good argument. You can't compare a WR holder's peak workout to something anyone else could do, especially not a novice HS girl. They are setting WRs for a reason, they can handle work that the rest of us can't.
OP: yes, as others have said, Vo2 max work on 35ish miles a week isn't going to work, the base isn't there to support it. moderate work, tempo, and progression runs mixed with short hill sprints and speed (
fan of US distance running wrote:
malmo wrote:Yes it is. Ridiculously insane. Why on Earth would the OP insist on giving this workout to his runner?
4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace
6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k pace
these are workouts el guerrouj did regularly. obviously someone else isn't going to be doing them at the paces his group did, but they are manageable when done at one's own pace.
definitely not an insane workout. difficult, yes. but that is the point.
fwiw, 5 x mile at around 5k pace is exactly what Rupp did in that famous post race workout. The miles averaged 4:15, which is 13:11 5k pace, so maybe he ran them at at 5k regular pace, not PR pace, but still 5 x mile at 5k is done and doable.
But I would never ask a HS girl to do it, that's for sure.
Doable for Rupp and El G does not equal doable (which in turn does not equal "should be done") for mortals. We haven't their talent nor their chemical aid.
l;hjn wrote:
fan of US distance running wrote:4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace
6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k pace
these are workouts el guerrouj did regularly. obviously someone else isn't going to be doing them at the paces his group did, but they are manageable when done at one's own pace.
definitely not an insane workout. difficult, yes. but that is the point.
NOT a good argument. You can't compare a WR holder's peak workout to something anyone else could do, especially not a novice HS girl. They are setting WRs for a reason, they can handle work that the rest of us can't.
These were not peak workouts, these were workouts his group did regularly. And he did these workouts before he set world records.
And again, you run them at your own pace, not el g's 5k or 3k pace.
She most likely bonks on this workout because they're too long and too short of recovery between efforts. It might take as long as two weeks to fully recover. 1000/1200 m at 5 k pace with equal rest. If she is struggling at this effort, slow down pace. Most likely her base is not adequate to support these harder workouts.
fan of US distance running wrote:
l;hjn wrote:NOT a good argument. You can't compare a WR holder's peak workout to something anyone else could do, especially not a novice HS girl. They are setting WRs for a reason, they can handle work that the rest of us can't.
These were not peak workouts, these were workouts his group did regularly. And he did these workouts before he set world records.
And again, you run them at your own pace, not el g's 5k or 3k pace.
yes, and that is a problem. asking a 18 min 5k'er to do 2k reps at 5k pace is a long time to be at 5k pace. each 2k is going to take just over 7 minutes per 2k, so the runner is going to be spending almost 30 minutes at 5k pace? no, not a good idea and not going to happen for a novice. for el g or rupp, a 2k rep is going to be just over 5 min each, so a total of ~20 - 21 minutes at 5k pace, MUCH more doable.
and by peak workout i meant peak of their career, leading to the WR's, not necessarily any one peak race workout.
Mandu wrote:Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 rest
As a former 13:40s 5k runner I wouldn't want to do 5xMile at 5K pace with 2:30 rest. That's crazy. That is a race effort, not a workout.
yykes wrote:
Chill malmo, coach mandu made an obvious typo, shoulda rote k repeats not mile repeats.
They were mile repeats.
almostnationalclass wrote:
Mandu wrote:Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 restAs a former 13:40s 5k runner I wouldn't want to do 5xMile at 5K pace with 2:30 rest. That's crazy. That is a race effort, not a workout.
Any idea what the person should do if they are stuck doing these by their coach? Run them at 10k pace and put up with the coach yelling at you for dogging it? Or anything they can do later in the week to help recovery?
l;hjn wrote:
yes, and that is a problem. asking a 18 min 5k'er to do 2k reps at 5k pace is a long time to be at 5k pace.
I never said she should do 2k reps. I merely posted a workout el g's group did after malmo said 5x1600 was insane.
l;hjn wrote:
each 2k is going to take just over 7 minutes per 2k, so the runner is going to be spending almost 30 minutes at 5k pace?
5:10 per 2k is is 40% of 12:55
7:12 per 2k is 40% of 18:00
I shouldn't be the one to give you cred. Anyone who has ever run should know that 5 x 1 mile at 5k pace is way too difficult, if not impossible to complete.[/quote]
They were impossible to complete, the last one was more of a jog.
in the same boat wrote:
almostnationalclass wrote:As a former 13:40s 5k runner I wouldn't want to do 5xMile at 5K pace with 2:30 rest. That's crazy. That is a race effort, not a workout.
Any idea what the person should do if they are stuck doing these by their coach? Run them at 10k pace and put up with the coach yelling at you for dogging it? Or anything they can do later in the week to help recovery?
To put my earlier comment in context, I did workouts similar to this when there were gaps in my race schedule. Would never do something like this the week of a race.
No idea how to handle your coach. Mine always preferred to undertrain than overtrain.
Isn't 2 mile race pace closer to Vo2 max pace than 5k pace?