Kenya vs USA

There are several reasons why the Kenyans are better and always will be better than the US Runners. There is a much bigger pool to pick from in the US but that means nothing. First of all, from a physiological standpoint, the Kenyans have many more red blood cells since they live and train at high altitudes. But that is just a minut point. The fact that there are not many other sports to choose from is also another small fact. Atitude is the main reason. The Kenyans are much more motivated to train hard and excell. To most that is there only way to financial freedom. They train hard for a few years, race for a couple of years, and become rich. We in the US have many more opportunities to become financially successful. Also we have way too many distractions in the US to focus on becomming good. Our system sucks. Our high school kids are intervaled to death. Our college kids have to peak three times a year. Very little time to build the all important aerobic base which takes years. We have the impatience attitude. Our best years should be between 25-30 years old. Most of the best runners, if they are lucky to get through college, obtain emplyoment and stop training. We need a better post collegiate system (it's getting better) for our runners that want to continue on. But most want to get rich, which for most of us as runners, will never happen if we train like we need to and don't get a full time job. No, we will never catch up to the Kenyans. Our lives and countries are way to different.

Our high school kids are intervaled to death.

This is a very good point. It is like teaching a 14 year old how to throw a fork ball and his having a ruined arm by the time he turns 18. High school coaches who integrate these fart work outs are only doing it to beat the school's rival and they really aren't making the kids faster--just peaking them too often--which was your other point. The Kenyans--besides taking drugs--do a lot of things right. A lot of their runners become great from having trained on their own of running to school and back. They improve when they want and how they want. Then when a coach of theirs finally thinks he has spotted a prospect, the runner is often ready for some interval training--but not like the kids have forced on them here in the states though.

Besides not giving kids a more solid aerobic base, the coaches in the states do harm in helping the kids develop foot speed with their idiotic interval training and having them run stairs to blow out their knees. There is not enough focus on cross training--unless the kid takes it up on his own--and if that is the case he will probably do things that will not help him much for running--such as taking up cycling or swimming (both can help but not much if relied upon for the only cross training).

In articles I have read on this subject, the Kenyans even eat a better diet than americans for running--by far. Most high school coaches haven't the slightest clue about nutrition outside of taking a few pills--which can often be more harmful than helpful.

Before I get chatised for not showing that I know what I am talking about--let me prove that I DO know what I am talking about by giving some sound advice.

For nutrition:

Integrate slowly more fruit into your diet. Avoid dairy products particuarly milk--anything is better than milk except alcohol. Eat white meat more than red meat--particuarly poultry. Rarely eat pasta--get carbs from rice instead. Avoid spices and condiments.

For training for the 5K:

Focus on gradually--very gradually--running a brisk 10 miles per day--take Saturday and Sunday off. Start off--if need be--of runnuning 3 miles and walk the rest.

For cross training:

I can recommend a lot of things here. I will just mention two. Take up tennis--it will help develop foot speed and it is fun. Get the Torso Track. Two sets of 75 reps using all bands should be done at least 3 times per week. Never focus on using no bands--focus on using them all. It will create the type of muscle toning that you can not get from any other work out and I guarantee that you will improve your foot speed.

In recent years, I have noticed that young people are starting HS cross country in noticeably worse shape than they once did. Our first XC practice is always to cover 3 miles; walk if necessary, but cover the distance. Until recently just about any HS kid was in good enough shape just from being an active young kid to handle this with ease. Not so anymore.

There are a number of young people who have been part of some kind of a structured sport since their pre-school years (usually soccer) who have a good fitness base and develop into good form fairly quickly. These are usually kids from more affluent families. But few kids who don't have the benefit of a structured athletic background of some sort are in any kind of shape when they start high school. And many if not most of these kids who DO have the background are from families of high-achieving people who have their kids involved in so many things that the focus required to become a top-level runner is lost in the frenzy of being a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Look at most states and the best XC teams are usually from the affluent schools. Out of 18 schools at our state meet this year, our school was the only school of the top 10 who was from "the wrong side of the tracks" in their town; the only other schools similar to ours socio-economically were the 17th and 18th schools. That wasn't true when I was in school (or when I started coaching); there were always several very good teams consisting of kids from blue-collar backgrounds.

Left to their own devices, it seems most young people these days want to at best do something like skateboarding and at worst sit in front of computers and playstations. There are more hard-working people than you like to give credit who are doing their best to develop runners, but we don't get much help from our society.

Ah say that American distance training worst in world. Runner get injured easy. Look what they do to Ritzenhein and Webb. Runner over-race in high school. High school runner no get professional coach ever, nor do they get to train with other runner at high level.

Kenya runner get professional coach from early age. Kenya runner get to train with other top runner at early age. Professional coach = professional runner. Junky coach = junky runner. American high school coach get what they produce, junk.

Ah say only when Marius leave American school did he become world-class runner. Marius no become world-class runner if he stay in American school.

Sorry for the errant previous posting. Browser has a mind of its own.

A few possibilities:

1) Let's face it -- the American diet is the worst. The obesity rate's soaring. Distance runners won't likely be fat, but you never know what's happening to their coronaries. Even back in the mid- and late 1960s, when the diet was presumably better, autopsies of kids shipped back from Vietnam showed a startling rate of advanced coronary disease. These were 18-20 year olds. Imagine what kids' coronaries are like now.

2) These days, it's hard to to find a runnable stretch that's not paved in suburbia U.S.A., and that may in part explain why people get injured so often and so young. This problem is probably common to all the industrialized nations, though. I wonder if the kids at Flathead High School in Montana spend most of their time pounding the pavement.

3) There are a lot of other distractions, and American runners generally obviously have other means of improving their lives if necessary, whereas options for kids in some of the African countries are limited.

4) At least some genetic advantages. I find it hard to otherwise explain the clear regional differences (eastern vs. western African) in distance-running success.

may i be the first to tell you i've begun skipping your posts.

this thread could be dissected a hundred ways and the end result would be the same: there'd be about 40 kenyans ahead of the fastest american in rankings. this shouldn't be the kind of news that dampens desire to match or beat kenyans (or any n, s or e african runner), no. the news should be used as a source of motivation.

i don't want to read any more why we can't run w/them...i want to read about those that aspire to beat them!

5th man, the ONLY way we will ever compete with the Kenyans/Ethiopians/Moroccans/ etc is to truly come up with some HUGE cutting edge advances in training ideas, period(and no, I do not mean drugs). Why? Because they ARE nautally superior runners. Here are the reasons/issues:

 Hard training: Yes, the Africans, on the average, train harder than we do. But there are COUNTLESS examples where we have athletes that train as hard as they do. And there are MANY examples of African athletes of who have NOT trained exceptionally hard, but still produce mind-blowing times. And lastly, one can only take SO MUCH hard work. People can increase their ability to absorb hard training, but there is certainly an inherent limit to one?s absorption of and improving off of more and more hard training. If running success were ONLY about the amount of hard running one did, then there WOULD be runners training 5 times a day, 250 miles every week, if it would make them the best in the world. But, their bodies can NOT thrive off of that. The person who pushes the hardest, and runs the most miles, does not ALWAYS become the best. It helps, but it is a FACT that simply working hard does NOT always = success. If their advantages is not ALL about hard-work (and it plays some role), then?.

 Maybe it is the TYPE of running one does as a youth. This is a favorite argument of the Lydiard followers. They say: ?All those intervals as a youth KILLS runners.? Hmmm, I am SURE this plays some role, and I guess this argument would fall under environmental advantages that Africans might have (as the hard work argument above might also). ?The African environment (the argument goes), does not include tons of hard intervals for their runners as children, but ours does. There?s your answer!!? Not. The argument used to be that their kids ran to school. Paul Tergat did not, and as Marius points out, many do not now. Hmmm?well then, it must be the intervals(that we do and they do not), right?? Well, firstly, there is no scientific evidence to support the contention that intervals as youth is harmful. It might not be the BEST way to go, but there have been PLENTY of great runners that excelled off of high intensity sprint and anaerobic training as youths. Jim Ryun, Seb Coe, (just to name a couple) and many, many more. And then there are the Africans that have moved here and trained under the ?American system? and have excelled. These intervals may play a role, but is not THE answer we are looking for.

 Clearly we all see that overall, the US is not as good a running Environment compared to Kenya?s in many areas and yes that plays a role (and that includes our pavement vs. their dirt trails, our mostly sea-level landscape vs their altitude, our junk food vs. their more natural lower fat food, our physically undemanding childhood vs. their physically demanding childhood [i.e. ingrained work ethic], our TV nation vs. their non-couch-potato existence, and these last 2 things would supposedly lead to the Africans accepting harder training more easily, etc, etc). So, they have some Environmental edges, but?

 ..Clearly, there have been Africans who have moved to the US (into our horrible running environment), had done very little running back home, and then immediately became champions (Meb and Abdi both basically fit this profile, as does 2 time footlocker Cross-country champ Abdirizak Mohammed[who also held the MA 600m State Record and anchored his 4x400 team to the state title?out-of-this-world talent?.got side tracked with family issues], along with several others. Didn?t KK do much of his world class training while living here?? {Ok, he did not grow up here, but still} ). Also, don?t we have PLENTY of young people who grow up in altitude (Denver anyone?? The Rocky mountains? And plenty of other places)?? Why are they not automatically great champions?? And SOME of them were raised I am sure in disciplined households that encouraged healthy eating and athletics(remember the American work ethic?). But still, hardly any great champions. Maybe it is because their ANCESTRY did not grow up in altitude! It?s a recent development for their(US) families. And keep in mind that as the Haile G. movie showed, there are as many disadvantages to the African running environment as there are advantages! The Africans have many more dangers as youths, their life expectancy is lower, their medicine worse, and they are expected to not waste time on useless things like sports. Survival first, sports later. How many potential Paul Tergats or HG?s have died of starvation or, now, of AIDS?? Bottom line, from an OVERALL perspective, their environment is still superior to ours for developing runners, but, in my opinion, it is a mixed blessing and not as huge an advantage as some might make it out to be.

 Then what? If their superiority is not all about environment and amount & types of training (which it is NOT all about), then CLEARLY they have a GENETIC advantage. Dismissing genetic advantages in sports in light of the East African (heritage) athletes utter dominance in the sprints is beyond ludicrous, it is pure blindness. If you dismiss the genetic argument, PLEASE explain the blacks sprinters dominance to me! So once one accepts that there are people with genetic advantages in certain sports, and one considers all of the points I made above about how the Kenyan/Ethiopian/Moroccan (NO altitude in Morocco, right?) environment is NOT enough to explain their dominance, then?..does one FINALLY accept that the overriding component of their dominance IS genetic?? This does NOT mean that there are not other countries that occasionally produce a great athlete who can occasionally compete with Africa?s best (but still not beat them). Bob Kennedy is one in a billion for the US. He won the NCAA X-C title 5 months after graduating High School. He was NOT, at that time, a high mileage runner. He was an INSANELY talented runner. Yes, other nations do occasionally produce such an athlete (Norway has produced a couple: Marius & Are Nakkim?.they are 1 in 10,000,000). The Kenyans/Ethiopians/Moroccans produce these types of runners in DROVES, from a MUCH smaller pool of people. The answer is genetic. Don?t believe me? Read the below links if you have not already:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0657.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27096-2002Dec22.html

Please don?t be blind to obvious trends and scientific information that clearly show that some of the African nations have peoples that are BORN superior natural runners. Add in the right environment and hard work, and you have what exists today: Kenyans/Ethiopians/Moroccans dominating middle-distance & distance running. IT IS NOT BECAUSE WE DRINK TOO MUCH MILK!!!!!!!!!!!!! (jeesh, what a simpleton. Plenty of great runners DO drink milk, and plenty of people who do not never develop into anything special)

Should this make us hopeless. NO. But one needs to proceed from the facts of why the Africans are superior, and not from delusions. Because they are naturally better, maybe we should NOT try and train like them. Maybe we need to train better, smarter, and more ingeniously than them (and HARD, of course). And of course we always will develop some runners who will have the chance to be the best, such as Ritz & Webb. The Africans are naturally better, but maybe as running philosophers and scientists, we can develop more brilliant run-training ideas/schemes. Start with Lydiard and run lost of base miles?.but we then need to move BEYOND such simple approaches. It has NOT been enough and is not enought to surpass the Africans. We need some NEW advances in training techniques/ideas, or put all the old ones together in some ingenious combination. It is likely the only way to beat them: train as HARD as them, AND SMARTER! (And unfortunately, JUST doing more miles, less intervals, and more threshold work as one is growing up is NOT gonna make it happen. Those are good ideas, and THAT might be a start, but trust me, there ARE lots of USA/Euro runners that train that way and still do not beat the Africans. And there ARE Africans that train the ?American way? and still kick are asses. We need even MORE inventiveness & brilliance than just those proposals. Weights, Plyos, cross-training, altitude tents[controversial, but still..]are just the tip of the ice-berg. What will be the NEXT breakthrough scheme/idea??? )

Ah say during development phases youth burn out with over racing and lack of training.

Take Ah ahdvice and quit sport. Sport is no good to reach world class levels. Sport have no professional coach but amateur only.

At least Ah got the first sentence right. The last sentence is very close to correct, but not quite.

Skinny, your gentics argument doesn't wash.

Give you an example: a former world class wrestler by the name of John Smith had a double jointed type of body which helped make him one of the greatest wrestlers of all-times. But he still had to be in top notch shape to win. Besdies that there are a lot of double jointed athletes who never reached the athletic prowess of Smith (I might not have his first name right). Most world class wrestlers are not double jointed like Smith. But most of them will never reach the level of sucess that he did. On the other hand, if your genetic theories had any real basis, it would be impossible for an oriental runner to become a world class marathoner.

There are other reasons why african runners do well that you didn't mention.

1. They are most likely on more and better drugs.

2. Running--even over soccer--is the number uno sport for several african nations. In europe, soccer and cycling are way ahead of running. In america, we have football, baseball, basketball, etc. Running is way down the list--even behind hockey. Monetary incentives and privlidges for even being a running coach is much greater in many african nations than anything else.

3. National heros in africa are all runners. National hero in western world are anybody but runners (just about) particuarly long distant runners.

So, even with a genetic weak base in africa they should do better than western culture based on the reasons I just cited.

5th man--am I suppose to be profoundly hurt by you skipping my posts? Just wondering.

um...sorry, skinny, about the only concrete thing i got from your reply was that i might be deluded in thinking kenyans aren't somehow superior to americans. i've read and seen enough to believe there's SOMETHING about them that makes them faster at distances from 800m and up.

as i said, this topic can be dissected 100 ways and we'd still arrive at the same conclusion: kenyans can put about 40 ahead of the first american (not including KK...whole 'nuther topic) in year-end rankings. and this has been true for about 10 years.

let's hear for what we're doing to catch them!

What the . . . He seems to have purposely ignored me.

Not to throw a wrench in this but actually the Moroccans and Ethiopians are as good or better than the Kenyans but the Kenyans seem to stand out more since there are so many more of them running.

yeah, i refer to that in passing in my second post on this thread. besides e africans, there are some in the n and s that regularly give americans way more than we can handle. i don't note this to rub it in. the numbers speak for themselves. again, this doesn't account for khalid k as an american which statistically is intended oversight. which reminds, there's an excellent article about foreign born americans in the jan/feb '03 running times.

To those that replied:

Catman:

 The fact that you wrote: ?1. They(African runners) are most likely on more and better drugs? without ANY proof, shows you no nothing. THAT is sour grapes. Let?s leave out the Moroccans. Name Ethiopians and Kenyans with proven drug use?? US & Euro runners have had at least as many cheaters, and yet they can still not compete?? Hmmm?.wonder why?? ?We suck because we are clean? is a funny argument.

 why doesn?t the genetics argument not wash? Did you read the links I posted? Apparently many scientists thinks it washes.

 And can you answer why sprinters from East African heritage dominate so in the sprints, without invoking genetics? If not (and you can not), then might it be a reasonable explanation for the dominance of the Kenyans/Ethiopians/Moroccans? distance runners dominance? Yeah, it might.

 Asian runners are similarly built small like many of the African distance runners. It helps them too, and they often excel in sports where quickness matters. But clearly they are not as genetically gifted distance runners as the Africans. Because many Asian nations revere distance runners, and they are a very disciplined culture, AND they have much bigger pools of athletes than the Kenyans/Ethiopians/Moroccans do. But despite all those favorable environmental conditions (and some genetic ones), Korea, China, & Japan together can?t touch Kenya alone in distance running. YOU tell me why?

 You brought up wrestling. Wrestling is not as ?pure? or ?natural? a sport as running is. What do I mean by that? Sports that rely on many learned specialized/complex ?skills/maneuvers? enable athletes of less natural physical gifts to compete with athletes of more natural ability (and who are on better drugs). I may not be born fast, or have lots of natural endurance or strength, but if I study the game of basketball under the best coaches in the world, shoot 20,000 foul shots and 20,000 jumpers a day, etc etc (practice every basketball skill imaginable), I could conceivable compete on a very high level, even without improving my speed or endurance that much. At least MORE so than in running, where no matter how hard I trained, my lack of natural speed and endurance would only improve so much. Running is not a skill to learn (sure, techniques can be improved), but improvements on a cellular level is what makes you develop. And that is why in ?pure? sports such as sprinting or distance running, natural genetic advantages are SO big. And that is why sprinters ARE born as much as any athletes are. If basketball were JUST about being tall and jumping high, you would ONLY see athletes who have those qualifications playing in D1 college and beyond. And since basketball DOES have a LOT to do with being tall and jumping high, the majority of players do fit that description(so genetic advantages can be seen in any sport). But there are many, many exceptions in basketball because there are skills that less physically gifted players can master to compensate for their lack of pure physical gifts. In distance running, there aren?t many skills one can learn to compensate for not being able to absorb as much training as an African or not being able to utilize oxygen as efficiently at them. You can train lots to try and get close to them, but their natural advantages give them a big edge. And this is also why steroids and EPO ruin running more than most sports. A tennis player on Roids and EPO might improve, but the skills are the key thing in tennis, not just the pure power and endurance that is involved in running. And Roids and EPO give you pure power and endurance. THAT is why our sport is ruined more than most by drugs (similar to weightlifting, where pure power wins, and thus Roids become so important). All the Roids, EPO, and physical conditioning ain?t gonna make me a good boxer if I do not learn the defense and other important skills (jab, etc) needed to box. But Roids, EPO, and lots of cardio-conditioning (lots of cross-training with say swimming, pool running, X-C skiiing, biking, etc) and then only a little skill practice of running, would get me pretty far in that sport. Honestly, it would. And Africans are born with these pure endurance genes we all seek.

 Your reason #?s 2 & 3 for the African being better are environmental (in a larger sense) ones. They carry some weight, but clearly I do not thing they are the MOST important reasons. I also pointed out that the Africans have environmental disadvantages too, that balance out some of their advantages.

5th Man: you are right, it really should not have been addressed to you. YOU accept that the Africans are naturally better than us. I was just proving it to others and saying (along with you): what is the best way to close the gap. I think only new cutting edge advancements in scientific training techniques might do it. There are many possibilities. Who wants to try something NEW?!? The old way ain?t working.