Yeah right.
Yeah right.
Bravo. You kept papers since 1535?
Wonder what they'd be worth on Antiques Roadshow or at an upscale museum?
No clue where any papers for my family are. I just have two or three birth certificates, a couple of HS yearbooks some really old photos attached to a photocopy from the genealogist's research...which again only goes back to 1793.
Perhaps the Spanish Empire had better administrators.
Anyway, I don't recall saying that "they don't belong" if memory serves me correctly. I can look back at the thread.
At least you didn't mention the Crusades. LOL.
The borders are ridiculous.
The sooner they're gone, the better.
oh brother, the what you did 600 years ago so shut up argument! woohoo! intelligent!
So is anyone who posts here actually near where all this is going on?
Mine are at the church archives in Teocuitlan outside of Guadalajara and those have been kept by the Catholic Church since Beltran de Guzman arrived in 1530. My father's papers are spread across the country in Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky and Indiana with some at the Lilly rare books library at IU-Bloomington. My grandfathers though are easy to find. They're in the ground and I've visited them before, all laid out in a row in the same cemetery in Monroe Co., IN where we were one of the original settlers of the county.
It's really kind of funny and sad. All the right wingers moan about people having no right to belong and they don't know their own history or claim on it. My family has long held it was important to know our origins and claims on the land which are not really legitimate even though we've been here since before the beginning of the country and can prove it. What is interesting is why those who are so ignorant of their history feel legitimated enough to make claims about the history of others.
I also live in AZ, and basically there are rumors in central/S America that minors will not be deported, so people are sending their kids north. Most of them are being caught in Texas and then transported to a holding facility in either Texas ( I forget what city) or Nogales Arizona. Basically once they are there they arent really sure what to do with them. Some of them are being deported. They are sending US border patrol to Central America to stop the tide but not a whole lot is changing.
what the he!! are you talking bout brother.
EVERY freaking 1st world and most if not all 3rd world countries in the world has stricter immigration/illegal immigration laws than the US. But yet, the US get crap for trying to uphold its already weak laws.
Until ONE other country in the civilized world has less strict laws than the US, I would shut up about what the right/left/middle earth people want to do.
What I'm talking about is that you ought to reflect on how your ancestors got here in the first place. They were either invaders (like some of mine) or religious escapists (like some of mine) or possibly liars, thieves, people on the run, and almost certainly, they came here without the permission of the people who lived here.So reflect on that and calm down your town. You have not right to so virulently defend any immigration law when your own ancestors broke them too. Or is it proper to pull up the ladder now that you're here. It's good to have some historical perspective to cool the fever and gnashing of teeth. That's what I'm talking about and I'm using my own personal history, my family's, as an example. I more right than most to make a claim if tenure is all that is required, but I do not have the arrogance to do it because I recognize my ancestors were colonizers.
one two three wrote:
what the he!! are you talking bout brother.
EVERY freaking 1st world and most if not all 3rd world countries in the world has stricter immigration/illegal immigration laws than the US. But yet, the US get crap for trying to uphold its already weak laws.
Until ONE other country in the civilized world has less strict laws than the US, I would shut up about what the right/left/middle earth people want to do.
1. What countries did 600 years ago has NOTHING to do with the way countries are run today, so stop trying to compare
2. The Indians didn't have a government where they had immigration laws 600 years ago buddy
3. The Indians were not all here singing kumbaya with each other. They were stealing each other lands and killing each other just like every other group of people. Why you think the Indians had their borders forever and never stole from each other to make them any more innocent than anyone else is silly.
4. The reason why we have immigration laws is because stealing land is wrong, whether or not it was when the Indians did it to each other for thousands of years or the Europeans or Africans and so on.
5. Country and civilizations mature, hence better laws and more organization to stop the crap that happened for thousands of years, not from the US white people's ancestors, but everyone's ancestors EVER!!!!
So again, to pretend that the US people now have to let whoever in this country cause people were stupid 600 years ago is just....very very dumb imo sir.
Brother Rojas wrote:
What I'm talking about is that you ought to reflect on how your ancestors got here in the first place. They were either invaders (like some of mine) or religious escapists (like some of mine) or possibly liars, thieves, people on the run, and almost certainly, they came here without the permission of the people who lived here.
That they did. And what happened to the people who didn't or couldn't stop them? Cultures have been wiped out or pushed to the margins by invaders many, many times throughout history. I don't want it happening to mine. That's my motivation.
By and large, current illegal immigrants have no more interest in assimilating into American culture than early Americans from Europe had in assimilating into American Indian culture. History suggests the same thing will happen again, if nothing changes.
Someone is lining up to call me "racist". If it's racist to think American culture is worth protecting, so be it.
one two three wrote:
The reason why we have immigration laws is because stealing land is wrong, whether or not it was when the Indians did it to each other for thousands of years or the Europeans or Africans and so on.
Is that why the US supports Israel?
Central Americans are generally speaking a dirty and uneducated group of people.
Listen bub, there's a difference between legally emigrating to a new country or colonizing a sparsely-settled continent populated mostly by hunter-gatherers and flagrantly, illegally entering a first-world country with an established legal immigration framework with a child in tow to intentionally game the system.
I'm not even going to respond as it is such a different issue.
Stop trying to talk about the left hand when I am talking bout the right hand sir.
Well, the locals here probably didn't appreciate being pushed from all corners of this sparsely populated continent into a few holdings (reservations), not to mention being killed by said invaders which I imagine they didn't like very much at all. They liked space and it was all theirs. That's a fact, and it was immorally conquered if not illegally.Legality is a normative concept and as you say, a framework exists now, but what trumps that is morality which demands audiences of all ages address the issue of hypocrisy which nativists still refuse.As for gaming the system: it was as easy to buy forged documents in Amsterdam in the 1800s, and lie about it, as it is to illegally enter the U.S. today, regardless of the level of technology, sophistication of the legal framework or method of gathering food which really isn't much of an argument.As for children. Babies are made and will be made for as long as there are humans which may not be much longer. They have to go somewhere. To a safer place maybe. What parent wouldn't want their kid to grow up safe here rather than die miserably elsewhere. Isn't that one of the reasons people invaded here, for a better life?As for the bad people who come too. They should be barred, but like the criminals who managed to get in before, some always find a way. It's the price of not living in a box.
fasdfasfadsfd wrote:
Listen bub, there's a difference between legally emigrating to a new country or colonizing a sparsely-settled continent populated mostly by hunter-gatherers and flagrantly, illegally entering a first-world country with an established legal immigration framework with a child in tow to intentionally game the system.
If you're talking about the Midwest, I would have to say not all of them. Let's be fair.
Ryan HalI wrote:
Central Americans are generally speaking a dirty and uneducated group of people.
Interesting that you brought this up.Assimilation can go both ways and invasions too.You don't think this country is already transforming within? Haven't you been paying attention? There is no need for cultural forces to affect this country from the outside. All the seeds of change are already planted amongst the young. The effects of today's immigration won't be felt nationally for decades. The reactions of today are to forces that began in the 1970s and 1980s, and quite frankly, the demographic changes seen today have been imminent since the Treaty of Guadalupe. You don't just draw a border through a people. It should be no surprise that the Southern United States would have a cultural affinity and complexion of Latin America.As for stopping the dike. Good Luck. It can't be stopped for the reasons cited above.As for assimilation: contemporary culture is far more inclusive and the young know it and are unafraid. The product of these mixtures in music, art, thinking will be fascinating. Fortunately for the conservative mind, it will die afraid and not have to bear witness for what promises to be a very interesting culturally pluralistic future.As for retaining something of an idea of national identity, one might look at France's burqa ban and recent ruling that such preservation is consistent with human rights. The difference between France and the culturally and with regard to assimilation, is that that U.S. has always absorbed new immigrant's cultures, hence we have Italian, Mexican and other cuisines.
down with illegals wrote:
Brother Rojas wrote:What I'm talking about is that you ought to reflect on how your ancestors got here in the first place. They were either invaders (like some of mine) or religious escapists (like some of mine) or possibly liars, thieves, people on the run, and almost certainly, they came here without the permission of the people who lived here.
That they did. And what happened to the people who didn't or couldn't stop them? Cultures have been wiped out or pushed to the margins by invaders many, many times throughout history. I don't want it happening to mine. That's my motivation.
By and large, current illegal immigrants have no more interest in assimilating into American culture than early Americans from Europe had in assimilating into American Indian culture. History suggests the same thing will happen again, if nothing changes.
Someone is lining up to call me "racist". If it's racist to think American culture is worth protecting, so be it.
Brother Rojas wrote:
Ah well I'm half-Mexican and my papers show my family arrived from Spain in Mexico in 1535.
My American side shows papers landing in Maryland in the 1690s via Scotland.
Your families have been here 15 generations and you only have 2 sides? That's a lot of inbreeding.
Direct lines. Yes, there are a lot of 'cousins,' in the family. I recommend familysearch.org as a beginning point for searching your family history--it's maintained by the Mormons who for religious reasons, are quite good at documentation and are considered highly reliable.