RE: Cheating at Marathons

Not always greener on the... wrote:

uuhhhhmmmm wrote:

that would be "lady's"

Nope, he's right. It can be spelled either way. The apostrophe or lack of is a Canadian thing found in the back woods of Nova Scotia from a little tribe of 5' ladie's.

The apostrophe was not the problem.

Both versions are acceptable usage.

off the rails wrote:

Not always greener on the... wrote:

Nope, he's right. It can be spelled either way. The apostrophe or lack of is a Canadian thing found in the back woods of Nova Scotia from a little tribe of 5' ladie's.

The apostrophe was not the problem.

Geez, lighten up dude, I was just kidding around. Apostrophe or not, who cares?

gramminator wrote:

Both versions are acceptable usage.

are they pronounced the same way?

Is PM still holding/running bogus races? What's going on in San Antonio? Are they rioting yet?

Did she quit running?

Gutshot wrote:

Is PM still holding/running bogus races? What's going on in San Antonio? Are they rioting yet?

Did she quit running?

I think Darren Fortney holds the key. If that was really him posting on page 12 of this thread [and I see no reason to doubt that] and he presses his accusation against PM with Badwater RD Chris Kostman, then I think the rest of the dominoes will fall. In that video linked a few pages back, Kostman makes a big deal out of the 48-hour cut off and how meaningful the belt buckle is to everyone who finishes within the allotted time.

The more I look at PM's splits, the more I think she realized she wasn't going to be able to finish within 48 hours and resorted to cheating to beat that cut off. There could be some other explanation for her splits, but that one seems like the most plausible based on the evidence I've seen to date.

Here is another report from Badwater. Page 17. Thomas Zaide. What is the RD waiting for??!?! I can only guess he is still collecting facts. How many eye witness accounts need to come forward?

so if Badwater is an invitation only race, would there be some reluctance on participants part to rock the boat with allegations???

I would guess that there is extreme pressure NOT to rock the boat at Badwater for fear of being not selected in the future.

Badwater really seems to be questioned quite a bit over the years. I am not sure if it is the race itself or the race director? Both? The $1,000 entry fee is hard to swallow with runners I have spoken to. You don't seem to get this level of controversy at Western States or Leadville or even the Boston marathon. I hope Badwater can do the right thing here and clean up their act a bit. This is not the first time cheating has been brought up at their race.

On a related note, how awesome is Joe (RD) from the Rocky 100 to stand up and put an end to known cheating at his race? Nothing but positive and praise from the running community. If cheating is going on at Badwater, wouldn't the RD want to do the right thing AND have him and his race also put in the positive light? Right now, nothing but dark clouds over Badwater. Its getting stormy. It's not suppose to rain in the desert.

Individually the Keys 100 looks okay, but if you look at the runners who placed above and below her, we are talking a difference of several hours and her times don't look so normal in that context. Am I not understanding the numbers correctly? Just doesn't make sense.

One important point. She has learned to become a smart cheater. There are all different types of courses. Loop. Point to point. Trail. Road. After the Rocky 100 lap 4 debacle pm has learned she needs to cheat smarter.

Therefore just because the numbers don't always stand out, it does not mean she was not cheating. Somebody can cut a big chunk of the course off on a loop trail run and simply hide in the woods a bit to avoid a big outlier split. Pm can get in a van and cheat a few miles on a pt to pt course and wow, suddenly shave off 30-40 min just like that. Or she can get a ride in her crew vehicle on a point to point course and simply hide out somewhere until such time to reemerge with newly found fresh legs after riding, not running 20 miles or whatever distance is between time stations.

Not all cheating can be witnessed in the numbers. Especially if people have been hot on her tail. She has learned to cheat smarter. Or get busted.

You need to look at both the data AND runners on the course. Runners will police themselves. This is what is happening at Badwater it looks like.

This is what I'm confused about. How does this make sense? Unless I'm totally off base, PM was behind in every split but pulled off an amazing feat on the last one. What am I missing?

82 Place

5:34:46

12:20:04

20:34:41

28:49:00

83 PM

6:15:49

13:17:49

21:05:47

28:56:33

84 Place

5:26:02

11:20:55

18:36:50

28:59:03

1st F30-34

85 Place

5:26:04

10:51:11

18:25:28

28:59:03

When people are that slow, even the splits are hard to tell.

First, there are not as many participants around as the back of the pack gets strung out. Thus less witnesses and when comparing splits it is going to be a much smaller sample size.

Second, split times for the back of the pack are always a little wacky. The longer the race, the more wacky they get.

I often get stuck listening to slow co-workers reciting their mile splits off their garmin after a half marathon or whatever, and they almost always go something like "9:20, 9:43, 9:39, 13:34 (but I had to go to the bathroom and had to wait in line at the port-o-potty), 10:20, 10:14, 8:55 (I ran into my BFF Bridget and ran fast with her for a bit), 10:55, 15:44 (port-o-potty again, shouldn't have eaten the Denny's Grand Slam for breakfast, teehee), 9:58, 15:34 (my husband met me at the Sam's Club parking lot and I stopped to take pictures and change my shoes), etc...

And there are definitely equivalent people to that at ultras, I've worked overnight aid stations at a few 100 milers. I've seen people at the back of the pack trudge in and sit down for more than 15 minutes before finally moving on.

So, unless the splits are obviously ridiculous, like her Rocky Raccoon race, we need more evidence. Perhaps we can contact the people she supposedly passed at the Keys 100 and ask if they remember her going by them on foot. The Keys race is along a road so it would be very easy to get a ride for a few miles at that race.

What I don't understand is why did PM ever branch into ultras? Wasn't the most "marathons" in a year enough attention for her? It seems like she would have been okay, just cheating at her own stupid races, but once she branched out to other people's ultras, she is getting busted.

sagger vance wrote:

What I don't understand is why did PM ever branch into ultras? Wasn't the most "marathons" in a year enough attention for her? It seems like she would have been okay, just cheating at her own stupid races, but once she branched out to other people's ultras, she is getting busted.

I bet she does regret it now! I think you're exactly right... cheating at a race she holds herself that has 5 finishers ... well, its silly, and strange, and I can't believe Guinness counts it, but whatever, its her little weird subculture.

I think its the ultras where she's underestimated passion. Everyone has a fat friend who ran a marathon and finished in 6 hrs. 100miler finishers are harder to come by. And even if you walk the whole darn thing, it's still an impressive accomplishment. When you start saying you finished in under 24 hrs, its a milestone a lot of 100 finishers strive for... and you're starting to trend towards Kip territory.

Just like Kippy, PMs little defenders come on here and keep the thread at the top of the page. Cheaters should really learn, if you want to stay under the radar, don't defend yourself ;) When this thing started at the Elk marathon or whatever, I really didn't care at all. Then it stayed at the top of the page, I started reading more, and now I've gotten a bit obsessed with following the thing.

End of day: its good to see the running community policing itself.

It's great to see the efforts in the running community to out and DQ cheaters. I'm a triathlete and I wish that in our sport the same thing happened. However, we have a serial cheater, her name is Sister Madonna Buder and not only nobody will out her for her systematic course cutting, she was nominated to the USA Triathlon Hall of Fame! SHAMEFUL!!! Anyways, great job running community!

kens5 wrote:

How are YOU helping out?

Concerned San Antonian wrote:

This is ABSOLUTELY not true. KENS5 is currently still investigating. If anyone has any information including other instances of alleged faking please contact Joseph Conger at

jconger@kens5.com

. I received confirmation this morning that the investigation is still open.

Has anyone told these folks about her DQ?

go away wrote:

I bet she does regret it now! I think you're exactly right... cheating at a race she holds herself that has 5 finishers ... well, its silly, and strange, and I can't believe Guinness counts it, but whatever, its her little weird subculture.

They counted it because her husband co-signed it to meet their rules.

Good post.

Could be referred to as 'running smarter rather than harder'.