How did the USA make such a leap in distance running?

real time wrote:

I think some credit goes to websites such as this one, dyestat, milesplit, flotrack, etc. Teenagers, for many years now, have the advantage of seeing real-time race results. This, in turn, provides them goals to shoot for in their training and racing, as well as their coaches improving/honing their own craft.

Good point. I don't know if there are comparable web sites in various Western European countries, but if not, perhaps their absence is part of the explanation for why distance running hasn't rebounded in those countries the way it has in the US.

dsrunner wrote:Fisher dominated HS distance running on 40 miles per week. most HS stars are doing moderate mileage.

Probably more like 45-50, also he plays soccer every day, which is adds some speed to him, and gives him the added mileage from running around for 2 hours at practice.

He probably hits 65 with running and soccer.

They made the leap through immigration and changing citizenship.

When those guys come over the natives have to kick things up a notch.

Since 2001, better training environments - Team Running USA, Hansons, Team USA Minnesota, OTC, etc; success - 2004 Olympic Marathon medals by Meb & Deena opened eyes and inspired - if them, why not me?; bar raised by success that led to more success.

Captain Oblivious wrote:

They made the leap through immigration and changing citizenship.

When those guys come over the natives have to kick things up a notch.

There's some truth to that.

Lagat has had a big influence.

Meb and Lomong came here young but certainly picked up the level.

Webb and Ritz really got it going, though.

I think runners kept feeding off of each other to improve.

And the internet had to have had an effect with some much information and discussion handy.

Regardless of other countries dropping off, the US has more A qualifiers in every event than ever before.

Red Spirit wrote:

dsrunner wrote:Fisher dominated HS distance running on 40 miles per week. most HS stars are doing moderate mileage.

Probably more like 45-50, also he plays soccer every day, which is adds some speed to him, and gives him the added mileage from running around for 2 hours at practice.

He probably hits 65 with running and soccer.

Steve Magness ran faster than Fisher, and Magness was a high mileage kid. CHECKMATE!

The US provides more financial support to elite distance runners than the other countries.

Having groups working together under the auspices of experienced coaches is no small part of the picture.

The US is playing third fiddle in distance running to Ethiopia and Kenya, of course. But it has the structure of a national high school program and a national college program in place which are feeders to the top end elite groups alluded to.

dkny64 wrote:

I don't have an explanation for why Western European distance running just kind of feel off a cliff. It's not just worse in relative terms than it was 25-35 years ago, it's worse in absolute terms, which seems bizarre.

One obvious claim to make is that all the top Western European distance runners were blood doping, but if it was just that, why would they have stopped [it was still pretty much undetectable when it was first banned] and why wouldn't they have switched to EPO in the early 90s?

People in Europe don´t give a shit about elite distance running these days. It is seen as some bizarre niche sport. When there is a big arena meet people care a lot more about the sprints and field events.

I watched the Sollentuna Grand Prix yesterday and when people had seen Blanka Vlasic finished jumping they went home even though there were quite a few distance runs left on the program.

Bring Back the Mile wrote:

Since 2001, better training environments - Team Running USA, Hansons, Team USA Minnesota, OTC, etc; success - 2004 Olympic Marathon medals by Meb & Deena opened eyes and inspired - if them, why not me?; bar raised by success that led to more success.

Yeah, I definitely agree with the training group theory. It only takes a half dozen training groups that provide a little bit of support to their athletes to get the top kids graduating college a place to go and continue to improve. I probably wouldn't include Team Minnesota in that though, that place seems to just barely improve their athletes. Part of that might be because they get the second tier talent, but I think a bigger part might be that their training isn't quite top notch, although it probably isn't bad, it just isn't good enough to really take their people to the world stage.

But definitely the training club scene is much better than it was in the 80s and 90s. For a while, Farm Team was really one of the only options around, and it just wasn't going to work for everybody in terms of training techniques and location, and it definitely didn't have the resources to help every potential elites out there.

I understand that's the case now, but what changed? There was a time when there were a significant number of elite mid-d and distance runners who had been born and raised in Western Europe and a significant Western European fan base. Then the native-born Western European elites started vanishing but the fan base seemed to remain. Now [in a way not surprisingly] the fan base seems to be eroding too. But I return to the question - why has elite distance running bounced back in the US but not in Western Europe?

Team USA Minnesota has produced 22 national champions in distances ranging from the 1500m up through the marathon and done it on the track, roads and in cross country. Also an Olympian in the 1500m and placed numerous athletes on world teams - track, cross country and roads I'd say that was better than barely improving their athletes.

Ohio guy wrote:

Try my obviously unofficial name test.

Without taking time to think, pick a European country and quickly throw out the name of one or two of the top current male runners.

1) Ireland?

2) Italy?

3) Portugal?

I got O'Lionard, Meucci and Ronaldo. If the Portuguese don't have any runners than maybe Ronaldo is it.

dkny64 wrote:

I understand that's the case now, but what changed? There was a time when there were a significant number of elite mid-d and distance runners who had been born and raised in Western Europe and a significant Western European fan base. Then the native-born Western European elites started vanishing but the fan base seemed to remain. Now [in a way not surprisingly] the fan base seems to be eroding too. But I return to the question - why has elite distance running bounced back in the US but not in Western Europe?

Two words

Alan Webb

The post below is laughable.

The post below is on to something....

I think the Internet has improved coaching a lot. You'd think the top guys always had good coaches, but the times at ever level in the US have gotten WAY FASTER. The improvement in college is even more staggering.

Now, one would think at the top level the best guys would always be getting good coaching... But perhaps not.

The High/Low training was very rare when Wejo went to Flagstaff. Now everyone sees everyone less doing it and does it.

The rest of the world has gotten slower over the last 10 years in some ways. The Internet hasn't really helped them. Maybe increased testing?

Interesting things to think about.

Rashid Ramzi wrote:

Lets Run Dot Com

is that really you rashid?

American records: indoor 60m 6.39 100m 9.69 200m 19.32 400m 43.18 800m 1:42.60 1500m 3:29.30 3000m 7:29.something 5000m 12:53.60 10000m 26:44.37 thon 2:05:38 I know man we've broken about every "super fast" barrier there is to break :-)

The Asker wrote:

In light of Mo Trafeh's announcement, and questioning of who else might be dirty, I wonder if we can really believe that so many US runners have made such a huge leap in such a short period of time.

High school performances have skyrocketed during this same period. Do you think drugs are responsible for those as well?

dkny64 wrote:

There's a lot of evidence that Ryun, Shorter, Rodgers and Pre doped? More info, please.

dkny64 wrote:

My claim is that the US has gotten back to its trend line in distance running. Could some of the improvement be due to doping? Of course, but there's no evidence I'm aware of

that Ryun, Shorter, Rodgers or Pre doped,

Sorry, my brain stopped at the word "of" without the remaining part of the sentence. Poor comprehension on my part.

I believe there is enough circumstantial evidence to hang a black cloud over current groups like NOP. Sorry I misread your point.

Ohio guy wrote:

Are you suggesting the U.S. was the only country NOT doing what you are implying?

Now, they are, and look at the results when everyone is on even ground?

DRUGS WILL NEVER EVEN OUT THE PALYING FIELD. There will always be groups who innovated the latest "technique", legal or illegal, before the rest of the world catches up. The Spanish had their time. Then a better test came out. Now the Americans are having their time, and will continue to do so until IAAF faces the rediculousness of top US distance runners suffering from rare old lady diseases.

Call it "not illegal", it still ripps off alot of athletes just like the Moroccans and their EPO did. Do you think Virin deserved to be a double-double gold medalist? Do you really think Farah deserves to be one?