Who are Efraimson & Fisher's High School coaches? Is this legal?

The Donger wrote:

A few thoughts about some comments from recent articles.

I realize that states have different rules but both Efraimson & Fisher's coach work with kids starting in Junior High. Both do not appear to be employed by the school. Who is their HS coach and how is this possible?

It takes a bit of paperwork to work with kids, background checks etc. the School is liable. Seems odd that Scannell still coaches the distance runners if he is no longer a coach at the school or under the authority of the AD and principal?

Efraimson's coach is a college coach. I'm assuming a volunteer at the high school? Are you allowed to coach both high school and college by rule? Are there not recruiting violations there?

Interesting side stories. Seems like the typical private coaches getting involved in JH.

Can't speak about Fisher's situation, but for Efraimson...

She wasn't coached by either of her HS coaches, or by her current personal/club coach, when she was in middle school.

Here's the history of Efraimson's coaching:

(she ran sprints/hurdles until 8th grade)

2010 MS XC: Rick Houston

2010 (Club w/ Evergreen Storm) XC: Chantel Efraimson (her mom)

2011 MS Track: Rick Houston

(didn't participate in club track in 2011)

2011-2012 XC/Track: Mike Hickey

2012-2013 XC/Track: Mike Hickey

2013 XC: Laurie Porter

2014 Track: Karen Goritski (longtime assistant in the fall)

2013-2014 Club Coach: Mike Hickey

(Mike Hickey coached Camas XC/Track from 2008-2013; prior to that, he was a coach at Portland State, and before that at Clackamas College. He coached at Clark College this past year, but resigned after track)

Hickey isn't a volunteer coach at Camas. I don't know the exact details of Efraimson's current training schedule - e.g. whether she does a light workout with the rest of the team, plus her workout with Hickey as a double, and how the two sets of coaches work together for her. I do know that Efraimson wasn't practicing with the Clark College athletes.

Who cares? Seriously, I'm not trying to troll you on this but I can not find a reason why we are going to limit an athletes ability to have a great coach because of some archaic rule(s). I've had success with athletes that I've personally coached, I've had athletes in my program who have hired personal coaches and I've been a personal coach. A very large part of athletic success is having the athlete feel comfortable and confident in their coach and training. If this means that they need to get outside help, so be it. This message board is very narcissistic. "Our athletes suck," "He's not an American (we're all immigrants)," "They must be on drugs if they are running that fast," "They have too much support." Get over it. Outside of the use of drugs or moral compromise, we need to go to any length to support our athletes. If Andy Powell, for example, whats to coach a high school athlete, why shouldn't he? The NCAA is a farce and so are many HS rules.

Yeah, we should let all the club coaches cherry pick the better kids from legit HS coaches.

Wasn't Salazar the one who actually advised (coached) Rupp in HS?

As for Alexa training with the Clark College athletes, not sure that happened, although that might be why coach Hickey resigned. It would be good for her to train with a community college team though, maybe running start will allow it.

Let's be honest Alexa is a once in a lifetime athlete. Hickey would be smart to work exclusively with her, what does he have to gain and lose by working with a community college or high school program. I heard that he was the official indoor track coach for Camas High School.

As for the current high school coaches, Laurie is nice, but won't stand up to Goritski, who hates coach Hickey. I have watched Goritski glare at Hickey at meets, while Alexa talks with him. Jelousy is a bad thing. Maybe the jelousy makes her angry, which is why she never talks to Alexa. Maybe she is angry because she used to be cute (no longer for sure).

Go Alexa!

My high school coach is a stay at home mom, wait, she doesn't have any kids at home. Shoot, well she is good, wait, no she isn't!!!

My club coach who I pay $50 a month is a lawyer, who was an all-american and is cool as hell. He has helped me progress from 4:45 as a sophomore to 4:10 as a senior.

My high school coach is a jogger! Get over it, this is America!!!

I can't speak for this situation here but all too often I've seen a private coach bad mouth a successful coach or program to win over a client. I'm not anti "private coaching" if it can be done in a professional mannor. But it needs to work for everyone. And these rules are not just from the NCAA but the law (for reasons already discussed).

But who cares? I think it is a reality of our sport today and worth discussing. Many top HS athletes are developed then poached or worse recruited before they even hit HS. Again, not the case here but I've heard private coaches tell kids to not run xc, it kills your speed and they should keep training (and paying). It is a dynamic of coach-athlete-parent that is worthy of being discussed. Not just on a track level but all sports.

Or you can just be like everyone else and say who cares.

To be clear, I said she DID NOT run with collegiates. From my understanding (heard from a former athlete who ran at Clark this last year), she was NEVER part of any workout with college athletes. She sometimes practiced with Hickey after the college kids were done and gone for the day.

I would be pretty surprised if there was an official indoor track coach for Camas HS - there is no indoor track season in Washington, and as such it doesn't make much sense if they would hire a coach for a sport that isn't officially participated in, especially since that would open up a potential out-of-season coaching violation if they were to give the job to any track or XC coach at the school.

Didn't know that about Goritski/Hickey. That might explain part of the reason for Efraimson feeling like she needs to move on from HS competition... it would be a shame if that is what keeps her from being with the rest of her team for one last year.

High School Phenom wrote:

My club coach who I pay $50 a month is a lawyer, who was an all-american and is cool as hell.

A lawyer who only charges $50 a month!

0/10

The Donger wrote:

I can't speak for this situation here but all too often I've seen a private coach bad mouth a successful coach or program to win over a client. I'm not anti "private coaching" if it can be done in a professional mannor. But it needs to work for everyone. And these rules are not just from the NCAA but the law (for reasons already discussed).

I agree, though I'm sure that isn't the situation with Efraimson. It seems like she and Hickey had a good situation when he was her HS coach, and it made sense to continue working with a coach that she and her parents trusted when he got the job at nearby Clark. Meanwhile, there are other programs I know about in Washington where club coaches are way overstepping their bounds and are essentially preventing kids from participating in the sport for their school, even at VERY successful programs... and that's a true shame.

The only reason most good private coaches charge money at all is for accountability. Most have other sources of income that allow us to spend time coaching HS athletes. If you were actually going to pay a good private coach a reasonable hourly wage for the work that they put in, the figure would be in the hundreds of dollars per month, which would of course be absurd for a high schooler. Only hacks (and believe me, there are hacks out there!) would look to actually make money by being a private coach.

another private coach wrote:

The only reason most good private coaches charge money at all is for accountability.

What does that mean?

+

Wow, a high school runner getting good coaching.

Bravp!

Where I live we have a very successful high school coach, but he is soft spoken and doesn't self promote. Then this local running guy starting hanging around and selling himself as an expert able to take the kids to the next level. He got hired and fired by like 3 schools, and never really produced anything.

One of the top boys NXN schools worked out this way. Runners pay him $100 per week. Don't know any other facts about the situation, but that were good.

J.R. wrote:

another private coach wrote:

The only reason most good private coaches charge money at all is for accountability.

What does that mean?

It means there is some official transaction, although likely separate from a club situation where the club is paid (who may then pay the coach a stipend/honorarium).

Most club situations (as with schools) require a screening process (in my area that is required) before anyone is allowed to coach minors.

School situations can be complicated and this seems to be one. I hate to see the kids get caught between adults who have their own baggage - the kids don't know what is best, and the school programs too often can't separate participation from development of excellence. Really this is why Rupp so outshines so many (other than mere talent),as he has been able to maintain the same coaching relationship (AlSal) his entire career. Just as private coaching can be good or bad (so too HS coaching), it saddens me somewhat when talented athletes develop well under a good HS coach, then move onto a poor (at least for them anyway) College coach that fails to develop that talent. Many on these threads make the assumption that coaching is irrelevant. Tell that to kids whose career has been snuffed out (or simply stagnated) because the person they were passed to at the next level really couldn't coach, but was a good recruiter. When some programs have a new coach almost every year (or so it seems), any development is a coincidence (or inspite of the program), not an ideal environment in which to develop.

Responding to a variety of things here.

1) Anyone can call him/herself a coach in the US. NGBs and other organizations issue coaching certifications and some even call them coaching "licenses" but there is no law that prevents a person from being a coach.

2) Schools and organizations will run background checks, but that does not prevent a coach from contracting with parents to be a kid's coach. A club might run a background check to hire a coach, but background checks have their limits to be honest. (As someone who was once in charge of a NGB coaching education program, a criminal background check is full of holes).

3) Now the school could make it so that a coach cannot have access to practice, but it would have a hard time keeping a coach away from a meet.

4) I strongly disagree with folks who think that private coaches should not get paid or that some who are out there trying to make a living as a private coach (and there are a lot in cycling and triathlon) are hacks or should not be. If a person can make a living coaching that person can then devote all his/her time to coaching and staying up-to-date and read and grow professionally. Having a robust system of professional coaches would be a great thing for this sport. Would there be bad coaches? Of course, every profession has bad practitioners, but having options means that the bad coaches will have competition.

Yes, there's still not enough bureaucracy.

The more paperwork, the better.

If people really want to get involved in sports, let's lay them as many obstacles as possible in their way.

Otherwise, it could be difficult to remain the fattest country on earth.

The Donger wrote:

A few thoughts about some comments from recent articles.

I realize that states have different rules but both Efraimson & Fisher's coach work with kids starting in Junior High. Both do not appear to be employed by the school. Who is their HS coach and how is this possible?

It takes a bit of paperwork to work with kids, background checks etc. the School is liable. Seems odd that Scannell still coaches the distance runners if he is no longer a coach at the school or under the authority of the AD and principal?

Efraimson's coach is a college coach. I'm assuming a volunteer at the high school? Are you allowed to coach both high school and college by rule? Are there not recruiting violations there?

Interesting side stories. Seems like the typical private coaches getting involved in JH.

so we have 2 kids who are doing awesome in the sport, not being burned out, developing a passion for running, tons of potential...and the story is 'is their coaching "legal"? What a POS assclown you are. People like you F everything up by trying to win on a technicality (are your shoe strings legal? They look too short to me..). What - it's "illegal" for anyone not employed by these kid's HS to help coach them? What the F is wrong with you, douche?

Meanwhile, thousands of HS kids are stuck at 5% of their potential because their sorry a#s POS HS coach is a lazy dumbas# with zero knowledge & little interest in helping them succeed. But hey, at least it's "legal"...