Long-Term Speed Approach to the 800m

Five workouts a week seems a bit of an overdose for anyone much less a high schooler.

I do agree that this may be a good way at looking at training for the long-term - if and only if the runner is more speed orientated.

It may be a different type of story for more of a strength based runner.

A example of an 800 guy thats more strength based would be Nick symmonds.

Your observation that the best 800m runners ran the 400 or even the 200 in HS is not because that leads to better, more appropriate training.

They ran the 400 because they thought they were the best at it. When they got the chance to race the actual best at the 400 they found out they were wrong. They changed their training so they could hold on for 800m and they were the best at that. Many try to change their training to hold on for 800, most fail.

The problem with your idea is that 44 low 400m runners can make a living running 44 low. The bigger problem is that there is not a single 44 low runner anywhere who doesn't believe with a couple of small changes/breaks they could have run mid 43s and been the best a couple of years.

This sounds decent but you've missed one important factor: most kids in the US won't have the same coach 8-10 years down the road. Some, like Ajee Wilson, who is still using her club track coach will, but most others won't.

You're talking about development, and this is certainly an issue all coaches/athletes need to figure out. Many kids will only race through high school. Some do it because they like it, the coach, their teammates. Others do it because they have to do a sport or to supplement another sport. What is the goal? Should it be development? Should it be get the best out of that athlete while you have them? What does the athlete want? Let's be realistic, most kids aren't thinking about tomorrow let alone 8-10 years down the road.

We had a couple 49 or low 50 sprinters we tried to convert to 800m in HS. all were failures (2:01-2:05 types). They were better suited running 49 or 50 and scoring points.

bro science wrote:

We had a couple 49 or low 50 sprinters we tried to convert to 800m in HS. all were failures (2:01-2:05 types). They were better suited running 49 or 50 and scoring points.

Really depends on the athlete's "type." Some people really are 400 specialists. But if you want to be a good 800 runner, you absolutely need sub-50 400 speed. If you can't run that fast, you need to consider the 1500m instead.

I think "absolutely" is not true, and "good 800 runner" is relevant. What constitutes good?

What you should do is a lot of basic speed work in a high mileage programme with almost no anaerobic training.

The gains brought on by anaerobic endurance training or any session at 5k pace or less happen quite quickly, so these sessions can be limited to the last few years before your peak performance with no real consequences.

Of course, if you take this approach performance will probably dip for a few months if the runner had previously been doing typical 800 training, so only the most committed would keep it up.

(*N*%WO wrote:

Your observation that the best 800m runners ran the 400 or even the 200 in HS is not because that leads to better, more appropriate training.

They ran the 400 because they thought they were the best at it. When they got the chance to race the actual best at the 400 they found out they were wrong. They changed their training so they could hold on for 800m and they were the best at that. Many try to change their training to hold on for 800, most fail.

The problem with your idea is that 44 low 400m runners can make a living running 44 low. The bigger problem is that there is not a single 44 low runner anywhere who doesn't believe with a couple of small changes/breaks they could have run mid 43s and been the best a couple of years.

The thing is, those runners who ran sprints in hs were never planning to move to the 800, so they trained only like a sprinter, had a sprinter body, etc. The sort of plan I'm suggesting is to develop speed that will carry over to the 800, not specializing in the sprints. I wouldn't have a normal 200/400 guy doing an hour of fartlek or easy jogging. This is the training to build off of in the shift to the 800m. Also, I would have a sprinter doing lots of weights and building up a lot more strength (which is counter-beneficial for 800m after a certain point) than someone planning on moving to the 800m.

Also, the fact that the 400m runners who moved to the 800 and were successful did it by 'accident' doesn't change the fact that the speed they had was a huge factor in their 800m ability. However this obviously wouldn't work for all 400m runners because of different training methods for the 400 that may or may not translate well to the 800 (as I explained above).

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Younger runners can aim to hit 200-400 times while still doing some endurance work. I do think there does need to be some aerobic development at a younger age - it can't be ignored. But it doesn't need to be the primaary focus. I can easily see a speed based 16yo 800 runner run 1.52 or better off less than 20 miles per week. All he needs is 22-22.5 200 speed and 48-49 400 speed, which he should have if he can run 22.0-22.5 for 200. Then add in the right type and the right amount of aerobic work.

In base work on strength, power, speed and aerobic endurance. No need for massive mileage. Most speed guys will hate a long steady run of 60+ mins, and thrive more on cruise intervals with short recoveries at 5-10km speed. They might have to do some longer steadier running right at the start, but don't put them off.

Comments:

- one hour of fartlek at aged 18? That's an awful lot. 30-40 mins of quality work is more than enough for a race that lasts less than 2 minutes.

- what speed for the longish repeats?

I think they need this in base:

- one session at 5-7km speed once they have their medium progressive run (40-50 mins is fine) under control. No long slow running, no Sunday long run.

- one session at 2-3km pace. rest what you run usually. Do sprint drills (including leg speed) as part of the warm-up.

- 1 quality session a week of speed and speed development. I mean training with the 100-200 guys

- one quality strength session a week and one easier strength session

- 1-2 easier progressive runs, say 10 mins at WU speed and 10-15 at tempo (1 hour) speed. Swimming if you want more quality aerobic work. They might find it easier to back up for a sprint session after a swim the day before than a 25 min progressive run

- no easy running for the sake of it. These are fast races.

Spread your sprint-related sessions out over the week.

Then once they can handle all this, do 4-6 weeks where the 2-3km speed session becomes a mile session and the sprint session becomes a 200-specific session with both top speed and anaerobic capacity work.

Then you move into your 400 and 800 specific sessions. Ideally in season one session a week at 200-400 speed, one 800 session, one mile session, and one with the cruise intervals, with a bit of easier running.

Best of both worlds.

I think the times that the Africans have hit at World Youths and Juniors have made everyone think they need to train harder younger. They do to a point. But I find it hard to believe that Amos and Kitum are still 19, and that Aman is only 20. No way, sorry.

Look for sprinters with a long easy stride who were also quite naturally good at cross country as a kid. If they're hopeless at XC and have no natural endurance, you'll be pushing it up hill to move that sprinter up to 800.

Just Another Idiot wrote:

Five workouts a week seems a bit of an overdose for anyone much less a high schooler.

I do agree that this may be a good way at looking at training for the long-term - if and only if the runner is more speed orientated.

The problem with this thinking is that only speed-based guys can get faster. Everyone responds to sprint training, so everyone can benefit from using it in their program.

I see heaps of distance runners chuck in a couple of flat out 60s at the end to work on form etc. It's not enough, esp for younger guys. They need a sprint session as the whole session, regularly, to benefit.

@Karma Police

Firstly, thanks for all your input.

For the fartlek, I agree 1 hour might be a bit longer than necessary. It was just an example of quality endurance which could also include 5k or 10k pace work.

Longish repeats (eg:6x400) are more for fitness and could even be done on the grass, aiming to hurt on the last few but not be dying of the ground afterwards. Maybe around 1500m pace or a bit faster.

Running 3k to 10k pace intervals could replace either of these.

With the easy running, I'm realizing now that 35mpw is a bit much. I was thinking a few 30 min runs added onto the workouts, picking it up near the end if the legs feel good. These would be your progressive runs, but they would also be an opportunity to recover as well by taking it really easy the whole way if the legs are tired. Overall it would be well under 35mpw.

In my training group, the 800 guys do all track work with the 400 guys which, during the season, includes usually 1 session of longer speed (eg: 3x120m) and 1 session of practicing blocks which includes a lot of pure speed (30s, 40s, 50s) as the 2 sessions of speedwork I mentioned.

-I don't see any pure hate sessions in all this talk. "If you can't tap the hate, you'll never be great!"

-Leg speed velocity. Make sure they can run 11.0 out of the blocks.

- mentallity >> physicallity

The main problem, especially when talking about younger kids, is that the 800 has so many different sorts of runners front up for it, ranging from very fast sprinter types to the more endurance-oriented. Most of the time, people gravitate to the training their more comfortable with, and respond best to.

Therefore, the endurance guy needs to work on pure speed with very short sprints with full recovery. The naturally faster guy (unless super fast-twitch) will likely need to try and run longer to build up aerobic capacity. They may be fast races, but the 8 still has a strong aerobic component. I recall that Peter Snell died in the ass the first long runs he did. He turned out pretty well.

Karma Police wrote:

Droptheacid wrote:

In my opinion, speed is underrated in the 800m especially at earlier stages of training.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I can easily see a speed based 16yo 800 runner run 1.52 or better off less than 20 miles per week. All he needs is 22-22.5 200 speed and 48-49 400 speed, which he should have if he can run 22.0-22.5 for 200. Then add in the right type and the right amount of aerobic work.

99% of all programs in America, high school or club would only put that kid in an 800 for a relay. Its sad. They see a 16 yr old run that fast and he is a sprinter for the next 6 years.

old coach man wrote:

Karma Police wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I can easily see a speed based 16yo 800 runner run 1.52 or better off less than 20 miles per week. All he needs is 22-22.5 200 speed and 48-49 400 speed, which he should have if he can run 22.0-22.5 for 200. Then add in the right type and the right amount of aerobic work.

99% of all programs in America, high school or club would only put that kid in an 800 for a relay. Its sad. They see a 16 yr old run that fast and he is a sprinter for the next 6 years.

I agree. But there's the problem. This kid might be a national finalist one day over 400. But if he can handle enough aerobic work to move to 800, he could be an Olympic finalist. I coach a kid like that (a bit younger). Could be a very good 400 runner, but has an engine, and will be better over 800.

I guess a lot of the debate centres on how much is 'enough aerobic work'. That has to be individualised, but it's hard to see anyone making an Olympic final (barring drug assistance) without a significant amount of aerobic work.

let me see if I got this right, your coming here to announce the best workout regimen for an 800m guy?

no one wrote:

let me see if I got this right, your coming here to announce the best workout regimen for an 800m guy?

I'm here to 'announce' that a high school 800m runner should train differently than a 23-year-old 800m runner in order to be better at 23.