Can't break 17 5K. Frustrated and giving it one last shot. Looking for training advice.

730 is way to slow. You should be going 650-700 minute pace. It'll take a week or two to get used to but it should help a lot. Try to do cutdown tempos. 605, 600,555,550. Then in 2 weeks 600,555,550,545. Maybe 5 300s at mile pace afterwards.

Towson exile wrote:

730 is way to slow. You should be going 650-700 minute pace. It'll take a week or two to get used to but it should help a lot. Try to do cutdown tempos. 605, 600,555,550. Then in 2 weeks 600,555,550,545. Maybe 5 300s at mile pace afterwards.

nonsense

run more, I didn't break 17 until I was over 100 mpw, but off roughly the same training I used to break 17, I broke 16 and then 15 after college. Everyone is different though.

for a 5k, 45-50 mpw is plenty.

I'd have at least one track workout per week. one set of hills per week. And every other week, make an 8 or 9 miler a tempo run.

One workout on the track I like it 1mi repeats. You could get away with 4 or 6, with a 400m jog between.

You should be able to handle 5:25's.

Your training plan looks sound but you might try focusing on racing more as opposed to more mileage. Try running open mile races or an open track meets. Also, find someone who runs the time you are shooting for and stick with them during a race.

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I agree that those 200s/400s aren't helping. I would totally replace them with 4-6 1200s/1600s at just below 5k goal -ace. And if you must do 200s, just do 4 at the end of the workout.

That 70 mpw range is probably too high. As others suggested, 40-50 should be enough.

Remember each person is different, you need to find what works for you.

Just 1 thing, regarding the "long, slow runs are the best for building base" thing, i think thats bullcrap. By "long and slow," I mean slow to the point that you can carry out a conversation with your friend without getting out of breath.....this is sort of easiness is relegated for easy runs.

For long runs just mix it up a bit...like for the first 2 miles go for a 7:30 / mile, then for the next 2, increasing the speed to a 7:00 / mile, and so forth.

There's also the thing that your body plateaus if you keep giving the same stimulation over and over again...like if all a person did was long runs, he/she would stagnate and actually slow down.

Er... wrote:

You, sir, must live a sad life indeed.

ooink wrote:

And even if that stuff was appropriate for your needs, just listing what you eat is meaningless. List how many carbs, protein, and fat you are actually eating every day. How are you in your 30s and don't know this?

Why must I live a sad life indeed?

Try this:

Run 5-6 days a week, 7-8 miles.

Each run is a tempo. Run 2 miles easy, then start into a 'steady' pace of about 6:45 for 5 miles. Run a cooldown mile afterwards.

Do this 3-4 weeks, then drop to 6:40. After another month or so, drop to 6:35. Get to where you're running most of your runs at 6:20-6:30 pace. Make one or two runs a week a progression run where you're finishing around 6 min pace. Tempo tempo tempo. Sprinkle in an occasional interval workout for variety, but make sure you take an easy day or two afterwards.

Take 1 or 2 days a week off. You'll need the rest as you're not 20 anymore.

I wouldn't worry too much about your regular run pace. You strike me as someone who borderline over analyzes his running, which is something I do as well. Obsessing over your normal run pace will drive you crazy and possible lead you too overtrain. On non-workout days, just run however fast you feel like running.

I struggled to break 16 for a long time, here are some things that helped me get over the hump.

1. Make sure you're getting enough sleep every night.

2. Make sure you're resting properly before your races. Give yourself at least 2 easier days between your race and your most recent workout.

you're speed is good, indicated by your 200 workout.

you've run at high mileage, which is good too.

Theoretically you should be able to break 17. This leads me to believe that you are lacking in 1 or both of these areas.

1. mental toughness

2. speed endurance (@5k pace)

you can do 200's in 29-32, and 400's in 73, but your mile repeats look typical of someone who doesn't have confidence in their long distance ability. You fell way off in the 2nd one, before pulling it together a bit on the last rep. Looks to me like you were intimidated by the workout. Try working your way up. Something like this.

week 1: 12x400 @5k pace (5:20-25)

week 2: 6-7x600 @5k

week 3: 6-7x800 @5k

week 4: 5x1k @5k

then for week 5, do controlled mile repeats. Run 3xmile starting at 5:40, and go faster only if you feel like it. Hold yourself back on the first rep.

week 6: go back down to 6-7x800. Try to run slightly faster.

week 7: 3xmile, starting at 5:30 pace this time.

I think your main problem is you lack confidence in anything over a 400. You don't trust yourself to be able to hold the pace.

I was exactly where you were at almost exactly the same age (stuck at 17:30 forever, it seemed), and I eventually did break 17, so I hope my insight helps.

Firstly, if your PR is 17:30 and training your butt off with very little change, you need to know that sub-17 is a pretty big difference than 17:30. For some it's not, but you are likely at a similar talent level as I - my PRs were effortless until I got to the low 18s, then I had to do some work to see 17:30. At that point, it took a LOT of effort to see sub-17:20, sub-17:15, and so on. I was reaching the limiting returns area, and hard to train a lot to get a small gain. It looks like you are there as well. So to look at your next goal as sub-17 is possibly biting off a bit too much for now. Look at is as an ultimate, long-term goal, but train for 17:19 right now.

When I read through the thread and saw your 10k PR, it was a shock. I was doing that as a tempo when I was running mid-17 for 5k. You have terrible endurance as the length of run increases. Do you have a habit of ending training runs weakly, particularly long ones? It's a bad habit. A lot of faster runners I train with occasionally like to throw in a hard mile at the end of a 10 miler, or more, and I've used this with positive results.

I agree with the negative feedback you are getting for the 200s on the track. Not a total waste of time, but not in your best interest right now.

I have tried a lot of different things for 5k, and what worked for me was pretty simple - about 60-70 miles a week with a long-ish run the day after the key workouts. This got me to sub-17. All easy/long runs at the time were at 7:00 - 7:10-ish pace (4:25 - 4:30/km), which worked for me. I know that's supposed to be a little fast for someone at that level, and I'm not arguing that. This is what worked for me:

M - 6-8 miles easy

T - 5 to 6x1km at track at goal pace. 5km warm up and cool down. No changes other than decreasing the rest interval each week. I knew I was ready when I could get by with 20-30 seconds jog rest. Try starting at 90 seconds rest and moving down each week by 15 seconds. If you cant complete the workout, add more rest and revise the plan to take a bit more time.

W - 12-13 miles easy, pick up at end if feeling good

T - 6-8 miles easy

F - 6-8 miles easy

S - Sometimes a standard tempo, but usually a 1 hour progression run (enjoyed them more). Tried to give all-out race effort in the last 10-15 min.

S - 15-16 miles easy, give or take

The Tuesday intervals really were the key for me in seeing progress, and having patience. It may have been better to change up the distances, but using the same w/o with decreasing rest each week enabled me to see what was impossible become reality week by week, and this motivated me very much.

Best of luck.

I think you need to adjust training and maybe a little shift in how you think your current training gets you faster. Firstly I believe you are doing too much. The work outs you do on Tues/Wed. are two hard workouts, with no recovery between. The Wed. run should be called LT, which would be a quality aerobic work out and when combined with Tempo workout would be the two high end aerobic runs you need for stamina/endurance, and that is what I think you lack. The way you run these workouts is what increases your ability to hold a faster pace. If you started with 6:20/6:30, LT , then your Tempo pace would be 5:50/6:00 Tempo 3/4 mi. LT 5/6 mi. when these two workouts begin to feel easier lower the pace a little. The 12x300 hill work out is good, but you don't need to do that but maybe 3/4 times in base building period. Short hill strides twice a week is okay. Long run is good, off day is good. Three to four weeks from first race , change one of the LT/Tempo days with some faster stuff like you do now. Alternate weekly the LT/Tempo once you start racing.

You are a faster-twitch dude. Those track sessions would be challenging even when I was in 2:05/4:40 shape (masters), and my 5K was also slower than those predict (16:36). If I was focusing on the 5K I would cycle through weeks around 50-60-45-70 in base, and lots of longer tempos and fartleks.

If you are like me, you'll pick up 10-15 seconds just by racing on the track in spikes. Roads just sapped my stride elasticity.

drop 10 lbs. boom goes the dynamite.

What happens when you run 16:59?

Then he can say he is a sub-17 runner.

@Maple,

There is a lot of advice given here, I make a little summary of the things I think that would really help you.

-Change the short interval session in a long interval session. Run intervals of 1000m or more. Not per se on 5000m goal pace, but when race approaches you should.

-Do some high aerobic work, an LT-run.

If you train 5 times a week this would be enough to break 17, I think:

mo:5-8 miles easy

tu: long intervals (5x1200, 3x2000, 4x1500, 6x1000 etc.) 2 mile warm-up, drills, strides. 1 mile cool down.

we: 5 miles easy

th: off

fr: 1.5 mile warm-up. 4-7 mile LT-run. 1 mile cool down

sa: off

su: 8miles easy (but not recovery pace, like we and mo)+ 10x60m hill sprint.

total: 30-35 miles a week.

4 mile tempos are 6:05 pace.

This is just not sufficient. That translates to a 17:40 5k (VDOT of 57.5 has LT pace at 6:06/mile). Work on those tempo and interval runs.

Do not run more mileage; it isn't necessary for you.

I think your training, while a relatively mature plan, suffers from an overemphasis on speed. It kills.

Maple wrote:

I live at sea level.

My typical 5K race always goes like: 5:3X first mile, 5:4X, 5:4X, then sprinting the last .1

My diet is good. I'm 6-1, 157 lbs.

Also, if you really cannot possibly change even one thing about your training, 152 would get you to 17:10 (59.5 VDOT)