There's no way I'm getting a coach. I'm at a top-5 D1 school and we're (obviously) not allowed anywhere near those guys.
There's no way I'm getting a coach. I'm at a top-5 D1 school and we're (obviously) not allowed anywhere near those guys.
do this session;
2 x (600m/2min rest/200m) 10 min rest btw sets
post the times
skip wrote:
do this session;
2 x (600m/2min rest/200m) 10 min rest btw sets
post the times
Did this by myself after a 5 mile run at around 7:30 pace and some sprints.
1:38, 0:29.2
1:38, 0:28.18
I'm going to see if I can do this again with my group. We'll see.
Crazedseepies wrote:
skip wrote:do this session;
2 x (600m/2min rest/200m) 10 min rest btw sets
post the times
Did this by myself after a 5 mile run at around 7:30 pace and some sprints.
1:38, 0:29.2
1:38, 0:28.18
I'm going to see if I can do this again with my group. We'll see.
2:06-2:10
Crazedseepies wrote:
Did this by myself after a 5 mile run at around 7:30 pace and some sprints.
1:38, 0:29.2
1:38, 0:28.18
I wasn't going to comment because long 200 series are even more useless as predictors than they are as workouts.
But those 600's and that brisk run clear things up. You're in good shape aerobically, but you lack special endurance.
Basically when you start running you've got about 300 to 400 meters of anaerobic power. To keep going fast beyond that you can develop the economy of your lactogenic system, or adapt your aerobic system to contribute more power at race pace, or both.
Neither 200 repeats with recovery nor long runs do anything to achieve this. The 200's are too short to be limited by acidosis, and long runs and threshold runs are too slow to work aerobic power at race pace.
Anaerobic efficiency is usually done by 300 repeats with recovery. You should be able to get through 300's without breathing hard. Go fast enough to push the pH level. If it gets hard to do that at any speed, move up to 400. Once you can get through 400 and be barely breathing at the end, you know your type 2 muscle is tuned up.
The aerobic contribution can be enhanced by short repeats with short recovery. Go at race pace repeatedly and use just enough recovery to be able to complete the workout, not more. Use the recovery to restore pH to just below threshold, not to recover HR. This way you keep your type 2 muscle out of the workout and force your type 1 to go fast. Use flying starts, because the aerobic system still won't be used for acceleration in the race. Train it to maintain top speed instead. This is a problem with long series of any short sprint and a reason not to overdo them.
600's are one of the best indicators because they simulate the transition between energy systems in the 800. From phosphocreatine to 80, lactogenic to 300 or 400, to increasingly aerobic after that. And they are the best way to train for those transitions. The final 200's of your workout don't mean much with 2 min recovery, as you could probably have done that no matter how fast the 600 was, and you're not going to finish a race in sub-30 anyhow. But the 600's themselves indicate a split of around the same time if you pace it properly. That would be worth about a 2:13. Two 1:35's would suggest 2:09.
But don't get hung up on indicators, or eventually they'll just indicate how fast you can do that workout. Race.
skip wrote:
do this session;
2 x (600m/2min rest/200m) 10 min rest btw sets
post the times
Would the 600 times indicate 800 ability? Would you need to kick off it on the 200's or maintain pace? Sounds like a killer workout if it is to go at 800 RP
The rest is crucial in such workouts. IMO 200 @ 80s is a bit too slow. A fast twitcher like myself (years ago...) can quite easily pull off such a workout but still struggle with breaking 2:10. 200 @ 70s is a whole different kind of workout if your strength is speed. Then you'll build up lactate a lot faster and actually get to see what you're good for.
hereforalaugh wrote:
skip wrote:do this session;
2 x (600m/2min rest/200m) 10 min rest btw sets
post the times
Would the 600 times indicate 800 ability? Would you need to kick off it on the 200's or maintain pace? Sounds like a killer workout if it is to go at 800 RP
The 2 minute rest compromised the workout to some degree (too much).
It really isn't necessary to do 2 sets, one will do if using to predict, but should be done solo (don't do it with a group or it really becomes a race in itself, which is not the point) and other training types can be done afterwards in addition.
Similar sessions: the recovery is for the 2nd element.
2x 400m (no more than 1:1 w:r) ideally 60sec recovery
500+300 (45 sec recovery)
600+200 (30sec recovery) more recovery is why people go so fast in the 200m element.
I prefer a straight 600m time-trial (no 200), if done solo, rather than than the 6+2. I favour the 5+3, but have used both that and the 4x4. The 60sec recovery is tough.
Other lactic type workouts at 800m paces** (as a progression) could be - 5-6x300 (2-3min rec),4x400 (4-5min rec), 3x500 (6-8min rec), 2 x 600m (10min rec). Some people take more recovery than this, and that is okay if it is required to maintain quality.
** could be utilized as date pace, goal pace or first/last 400m splits, etc. Working on weaknesses - getting out too fast, so pace; or getting out too slow, so acceleration - can also be introduced so as to not focus on just time for its own sake.
As to the 200's - there are a multitude of reasons for doing this session, which can all be legitimate, but understanding WHY you are doing it, and/or WHAT is its purpose should really be explained by the coach. The difference between standing rest and jogging rest can be significant and some respond better to one type than the other (both should be utilized for different reasons IMO).
Ah, if you had used new spikes instead of old ones you could have easily killed that workout. But because you didn't, I have to predict a 2:16.83 out of you. If you used new spikes then 1:52.85.
You make some excellent points here and I agree with them.I've also used the 4x400 in the past (5mins), going 1st lap pace for the 1st and 3rd, 2nd lap pace for 2nd and 4th repeats.However, the 2x400 w/1min - when rest is this short at that effort, would it not make sense to have more rest for a 2.12 girl compared to a 1.55 boy?What does make sense is that the 1.55 runner has just done a 57 sec lap, while the 2.12 one has been out there working for 65 (using a positive split approach here).Does she not "deserve" another 10secs of rest? On the other hand, they both run the same distance with no rest in a race, so I suppose she'd better just get on with it.What do you make of this?
janet weiss wrote:
hereforalaugh wrote:Would the 600 times indicate 800 ability? Would you need to kick off it on the 200's or maintain pace? Sounds like a killer workout if it is to go at 800 RP
The 2 minute rest compromised the workout to some degree (too much).
It really isn't necessary to do 2 sets, one will do if using to predict, but should be done solo (don't do it with a group or it really becomes a race in itself, which is not the point) and other training types can be done afterwards in addition.
Similar sessions: the recovery is for the 2nd element.
2x 400m (no more than 1:1 w:r) ideally 60sec recovery
500+300 (45 sec recovery)
600+200 (30sec recovery) more recovery is why people go so fast in the 200m element.
I prefer a straight 600m time-trial (no 200), if done solo, rather than than the 6+2. I favour the 5+3, but have used both that and the 4x4. The 60sec recovery is tough.
Other lactic type workouts at 800m paces** (as a progression) could be - 5-6x300 (2-3min rec),4x400 (4-5min rec), 3x500 (6-8min rec), 2 x 600m (10min rec). Some people take more recovery than this, and that is okay if it is required to maintain quality.
** could be utilized as date pace, goal pace or first/last 400m splits, etc. Working on weaknesses - getting out too fast, so pace; or getting out too slow, so acceleration - can also be introduced so as to not focus on just time for its own sake.
As to the 200's - there are a multitude of reasons for doing this session, which can all be legitimate, but understanding WHY you are doing it, and/or WHAT is its purpose should really be explained by the coach. The difference between standing rest and jogging rest can be significant and some respond better to one type than the other (both should be utilized for different reasons IMO).
hereforalaugh wrote:
You make some excellent points here and I agree with them.
I've also used the 4x400 in the past (5mins), going 1st lap pace for the 1st and 3rd, 2nd lap pace for 2nd and 4th repeats.
However, the 2x400 w/1min - when rest is this short at that effort, would it not make sense to have more rest for a 2.12 girl compared to a 1.55 boy?
What does make sense is that the 1.55 runner has just done a 57 sec lap, while the 2.12 one has been out there working for 65 (using a positive split approach here).
Does she not "deserve" another 10secs of rest? On the other hand, they both run the same distance with no rest in a race, so I suppose she'd better just get on with it.
What do you make of this?
janet weiss wrote:The 2 minute rest compromised the workout to some degree (too much).
It really isn't necessary to do 2 sets, one will do if using to predict, but should be done solo (don't do it with a group or it really becomes a race in itself, which is not the point) and other training types can be done afterwards in addition.
Similar sessions: the recovery is for the 2nd element.
2x 400m (no more than 1:1 w:r) ideally 60sec recovery
500+300 (45 sec recovery)
600+200 (30sec recovery) more recovery is why people go so fast in the 200m element.
I prefer a straight 600m time-trial (no 200), if done solo, rather than than the 6+2. I favour the 5+3, but have used both that and the 4x4. The 60sec recovery is tough.
Other lactic type workouts at 800m paces** (as a progression) could be - 5-6x300 (2-3min rec),4x400 (4-5min rec), 3x500 (6-8min rec), 2 x 600m (10min rec). Some people take more recovery than this, and that is okay if it is required to maintain quality.
** could be utilized as date pace, goal pace or first/last 400m splits, etc. Working on weaknesses - getting out too fast, so pace; or getting out too slow, so acceleration - can also be introduced so as to not focus on just time for its own sake.
As to the 200's - there are a multitude of reasons for doing this session, which can all be legitimate, but understanding WHY you are doing it, and/or WHAT is its purpose should really be explained by the coach. The difference between standing rest and jogging rest can be significant and some respond better to one type than the other (both should be utilized for different reasons IMO).
Would doing those workouts be a good way to train to push through in the 800? They sound like great ideas.