What's so bad about doing tempo runs too fast?

take a drink of some Jack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxJVtPT6rHo

JD says you get a specific benefit from training at what he calls threshold level - right around your race pace for an hour

joiwef wrote:

SMJO wrote:

Tempo runs are at 100% race pace effort. Just not for a full race distance.

You could probably say that every run is at 100% race pace effort then, at least for some race distance.

I'm surprised that nobody seemed to get my reference to the classic recommended race pace(about an hour). I guess I should have typed that out. Thanks for pointing out that every run is at some sort of race pace, yet again.

SMJO wrote:

joiwef wrote:

You could probably say that every run is at 100% race pace effort then, at least for some race distance.

I'm surprised that nobody seemed to get my reference to the classic recommended race pace(about an hour). I guess I should have typed that out. Thanks for pointing out that every run is at some sort of race pace, yet again.

Second reply to this topic.

But everybody else seemed to miss your point however.

just because you can doesn't mean you should. it might catch up with you at some point. you have to think long-term development, and developing a training plan/style that you can maintain over years (not a few weeks or months of 2-3 killer workouts a week).

30sec of what "race pace"? what distance? and how long is your tempo? the pace for a straight 3 mile tempo won't be the same for a straight 8 mile tempo. also, it get's dangerous to say "every tempo needs to be within x seconds of this race pace". that race pace is probably based off a PR. you don't PR every race. so why would you expect to run a certain pace relative to that PR every workout? if you're in the middle of a big mileage week with 1-2 other workouts and a long run in your legs the 6-10 days before a tempo, "X race pace + X seconds" will probably feel hard. it's a workout on less than fresh legs & without the adrenaline of raceday. so take into account these variables and adjust pace accordingly. better yet adjust effort & let the pace for that particular day take care of itself.

Ca$hclay wrote:

you might as well race wrote:

let's say we're of identical 5K ability (15:30ish or something).

Monday

you: 4mi tempo @ 5:00-5:05 pace. you went close to balls out.

My only problem with this is that even a "balls out" tempo (for me at least) does not even sniff my race pace. If I am within 30 seconds per mile of my race pace, I am usually @ what feels like 90% + effort and pretty spent for at least a day after. Nonetheless, I feel like I need to run this hard relative to my RP to get in a decent workout. Running a solo hard sustained run in many ways much tougher for me than a race, although it's at a significantly slower pace.

A good compromise is to do most of your tempo at the recommended effort and every third or fourth one push the pace a bit more and see how your body reacts. It gives you a good idea if your training is actually making you progressively better.

Going out and doing the exact same tempo means you are not actually getting better.

Why not start at say 5:20 and sneak down to 5:17, 5:15 etc.

That's the guy who is training better than the guy who does 5;20 pace for every tempo or the guy who hammers 5:05 pace and can't do any other meaningful training because he's going too hard.

SMJO wrote:

Tempo runs are at 100% race pace effort. Just not for a full race distance.

The potential impact is that too much effort will leave an athlete flat for other workouts. However some people are better off putting more actual effort in tempo/TT type runs and less into actual workouts comprising repeats of some sort.

Disagree strongly with this - Tempo runs (if using a Daniels definition) ARE NOT Time-trials. If time-trials are 95% of RP (same distance), then Tempo runs are at approx. 90% (without necessarily getting this anal about it).

A time-trial at 100% (less than race-distance - say 50-80%) race-effort has a place in training (as do races themselves when aiming for more "important" races), especially for middle-distances (say 600m for 800m), but they do not replace Tempo runs. The puposes are different as alluded to by the person giving the Mon/Wed example. Tempo runs to increase/improve Threshold (Stamina if you will), are about increasing volume of that quality of work with that aim in mind. How specifically to do that for any given individual (we are ALL different), is the task for coach (or whomever) to devise. The extention is toward marathon prep (see Canova), where fueling also becomes an issue. As the chart in Daniels explains, you slow down appropriately as you get longer (towards an hour), but even then a chart has limitations on truly gauging effort (conditions can vary a lot which will change things, something anal types too often ignore in pursuit of times).

[quote]might as well race wrote:

30sec of what "race pace"? what distance? and how long is your tempo? the pace for a straight 3 mile tempo won't be the same for a straight 8 mile tempo.

better yet adjust effort & let the pace for that particular day take care of itself.

[quote]

5K RP and my tempos are 3-5 miles. They are usually 45 secs to a minute slower per mile, yet often @ what feels like a similar effort. A good problem to have I suppose rather than the other way around. Totally agree with letting the pace take care of itself and not relying on the watch.

yeah i totally agree with this...i've been playing devil's advocate and suggesting a conservative approach to see how people react;)over the course of the last 8 months while prepping for two half marathons, I did 4 "time trial" tempos - measured, flat 8 mile trail with good footing, the idea being the workout would be my "fitness check" every 6-8 weeks. would mini-taper & get after it a bit more than my normal tempo runs, worked well.i think another way to push the pace is to play around with splitting up the workout so you can run slightly faster than you could on a traditional straight tempo. for example during my HM prep i would do straight tempos of 4-8mi at 5:15-5:25 pace, broken tempos (ex 2x3mi) at 5:10-5:15 pace, and Daniels-style cruise intervals (ex. 6x1mi w/45s jog recovery) at 5:00-5:10 pace. allows you to get the benefits of running just slightly faster than threshold without risking going out too hard on a straight tempo and having to cut it short (just like how splitting up VO2 max work into 3-5min reps allows you to run 15-20min at VO2 max over the course of a workout, whereas you could only run a straight run at VO2 max for 6-10min).

SMJO wrote:

A good compromise is to do most of your tempo at the recommended effort and every third or fourth one push the pace a bit more and see how your body reacts. It gives you a good idea if your training is actually making you progressively better.

Going out and doing the exact same tempo means you are not actually getting better.

Why not start at say 5:20 and sneak down to 5:17, 5:15 etc.

That's the guy who is training better than the guy who does 5;20 pace for every tempo or the guy who hammers 5:05 pace and can't do any other meaningful training because he's going too hard.

The workouts you mention aren't wrong or bad, but they aren't tempo runs. No one is saying that one should not run 4 mile time trials. But if your intent is to run a tempo, you shouldn't be running a time trial. If you're going to run two workouts and one tempo per week, the 4 mile time trial should probably count as a hard workout. Then you can go run your tempo the next day.

If I tell you that I do my recovery runs at mile race pace and that I stop to rest every quarter mile or so during these runs, you'd probably tell me that this isn't how one is supposed to do a recovery run. Does that mean that 400m repeats aren't a good thing to do? Of course not. It just means that 400m repeats aren't the same as recovery runs. Similarly, there is nothing wrong with running 4 mile time trials if they fit into your training. But 4 mile time trials are a different workout than tempo runs.

Tempo effort workouts are based on current fitness. If you go by Daniels description they are faster than a pace you could maintain for two or more hours and slower than you could maintain for 10 k . Tempo and Lt efforts in your training work together to build fitness to be able to hold faster paces over the distance you are training for. A young miler might do 3 mi. tempo workout at 90/95% of current 5 k fitness and a 5 mi. LT at 80/85% of 5 k fitness. College runner might use current 10 k fitness and do 5 mi. tempo and 7 mi. LT at same % . If these are part of your training, you can bring down pace as they become easier.

If you are running, lets say a 3 mi. tempo, as fast as you can every time you run, you are not understanding how threshold training works.

i think you misunderstood what I wrote. over the course of an 8 month period, i did four (4) workouts. these were 8 mile tempo runs on the same course, same conditions. goal effort was HM pace + 10s or so for 8 miles. so these were NOT 8 mile time trials as the pace was much slower than the pace i could actually run for 8 miles. just 4 tempo runs done under the same conditions on the same course.the point i was making is that it's good to do the exact same tempo run workout from time to time as a fitness check - if you can do the same workout at the same perceived effort, but run a pace 5-10s than you could 4 months prior, you know you're getting fit. i said "mini-taper" to emphasize that i went into each workout (NOT time trial) somewhat fresh so that I could compare times between workouts. if before one 8 mile tempo I had an easy week, and i went into the next one 8 weeks later with a big mileage week + 1-2 workouts in my legs, you wouldn't be able to compare the efforts. differences in time may not be due to changes in fitness if you don't control the variables.

I said "some people". Not every person including you.

I have seen my share of stalled out Daniels followers who just needed a lesson in how to actually run at race effort more than twice a year.

Those people.

Please say you're trolling. It would be more fun and believable if you showed how the body can be trained to use alcohol as its main source of fuel. Subject: RE: High octane training or Subject: RE: How to use breathalyzer test to determine proper alcohol content for optimum training.

Don't post when you are drunk. You make as much sense as ventolin.

Why so many tempos? No intervals?