Marathon: stepping down until faster

What's your current marathon time? For me it's not so much a time issue, it's just that training is so much more fun going a bit faster. About the 7:30 minute per mile mark was where I really started enjoying my runs more.

Also, the time commitment depends on how much you plan to train and run. How many miles per week do you intend to run? Doing 150 per week is going to be a significant time commitment regardless of your speed.

3:18 currently. 7:30 is about MP race pace. If that were my training long run pace,I'd be happy. No plans on 150mpw ever. I think you can do half that or less and still be a strong finisher.

Why not just limit your long runs to to 2.5 hours? Go whatever pace feels comfortable for the first 2 hours and then drop it to 7:20 or whatever your marathon goal pace is for the last 30. Doesn't really matter if you end up running 17 or 18 miles, but if you do this for a few months you'll start to see that mileage increase. This will make you a much better marathon runner than logging 3-hour slow 20-milers and working on your 5K speed which is irrelevant to your mission.

Take a look at the Hansons Marathon Method. It puts more focus on pace rather than a plodding slow long run. I'm mid training with it and loving it. I'm more motivated than ever.

I just ran my first marathon, but I'm moving down for a year to get a mental and physical break until running Boston in 2015. Some of it for me is not having to 20+ mile long runs for a while, so I get what you're saying.

I don't think there's any guarantee that an 18-minute 5K will translate into a particular marathon time or make long run pace easier. I believe in specificity, so training for an 18-minute 5K will help you run an 18-minute 5K, not necessarily run a sub-3 marathon or complete a 2-hour long run at 7-minute pace.

I agree with the Hansons suggestion. I know people who have run faster marathons than you running no farther than 16 miles for a long run in a Hansons program, so there's room for you to improve off of it.

As for getting down to 7-minute pace, I found that running volume made a big difference. Once I put in the miles, 7-minute pace felt comfortable. Maybe that's a Catch-22 if you don't want to put in the miles, but again, I wouldn't drop down to 5K training thinking that it's going to make a 2.5-hour long run easier.

I've jumped off the marathon bandwagon after suffering an injury. Personally I enjoy racing other distances much more than slogging through endless miles during a block of marathon training.

The good thing about doing other stuff is that you can run hard & train hard and race often. If you have a bad race, you just race again in the next week or two.

I have friends that are true "marathoners". They run 2 or 3 a year and really enjoy it. For me I just really enjoy running a hard 10 mile race, or half marathon or 10k. Don't succumb to the pressure that you "must" be a marathoner, or worse- an ultra marathoner.

UnWelcomed wrote:

I've jumped off the marathon bandwagon after suffering an injury. Personally I enjoy racing other distances much more than slogging through endless miles during a block of marathon training.

The good thing about doing other stuff is that you can run hard & train hard and race often. If you have a bad race, you just race again in the next week or two.

I have friends that are true "marathoners". They run 2 or 3 a year and really enjoy it. For me I just really enjoy running a hard 10 mile race, or half marathon or 10k. Don't succumb to the pressure that you "must" be a marathoner, or worse- an ultra marathoner.

this^

I'll add...

-No matter how hard you train, your marathon performance is going to be GREATLY influenced by the weather you have that day. 6 mo. of effort can be destroyed by an unseasonal heat wave.

- The training can be monotonous. For most of us marathon training just boils down to two workouts: tempos and long runs.

-When "marathoning" I always found myself "grabbing miles". I'd turn a 8 into a 10, or 6 into an 8 just to get those weekly miles up. I dont obsess on weekly totals (as much)when doing other training.

EPOpian wrote:

UnWelcomed wrote:

I've jumped off the marathon bandwagon after suffering an injury. Personally I enjoy racing other distances much more than slogging through endless miles during a block of marathon training.

The good thing about doing other stuff is that you can run hard & train hard and race often. If you have a bad race, you just race again in the next week or two.

I have friends that are true "marathoners". They run 2 or 3 a year and really enjoy it. For me I just really enjoy running a hard 10 mile race, or half marathon or 10k. Don't succumb to the pressure that you "must" be a marathoner, or worse- an ultra marathoner.

this^

Just curious but how many miles a week are you guys putting in? I never seem to get bored running lots of miles and when I'm training for 5k I will run 100 mile weeks. That's not marathon mileage for sure but it's a decent amount of running. I'm not trolling, I'm just curious. I'm not fast, I'm over 40 and I'm a 16:49 5K runner.

+2

"when I'm training for 5k I will run 100 mile weeks. That's not marathon mileage for sure but it's a decent amount of running"

There's a bizarre belief on LR that you're not serious unless you're doing 150+ miles/week. Let's be clear: Most professional runners do not currently run that much, even marathoners. Mo Farah says he's doing 120/week in preparation for his marathon.

Non-elites can achieve tremendous success on well under 100/week in the marathon. There are plenty of ~2:30 guys who run, like, 70s.

Also, listen to the OP: He's a weekend warrior (as are probably most of us on LR, despite the constant chest-thumping and dick-sizing). For someone like that, just putting in consistent 50- or 60- mile weeks will lead to a big improvement. That'll get most people under 3:00.

And to the OP: Don't listen to the haters. Specificity yadda yadda, not that it's wrong, but going faster first does have its merits. You'll get stronger and continue to put in miles, which will improve your marathon time. Hell, traditionally most pros do short stuff first, when they're young, and then move up to marathons. If you do this for a while and then have the urge to train for another marathon, you'll be in better shape than you currently are. Go for it.

I was actually asking out of curiosity. I'm no stud runner and I'm well aware of what type of mileage top marathoners run. I was asking the question because mileage was a big part of what made me better. Some people like it some people don't. I was curious about how many miles it took to burn the OP and other people in this thread out. I'm slow, I get burnt out on hard track workouts and don't look forward to them. I like running lots of miles and tempos. I wasn't being a hater. Let's Run is the only place you can ask an honest question and get attacked for it and told you're a jerk. I'm sorry but just with the runners I know, all of them ran about 120 miles a week for their marathons so no 100 miles a week isn't marathon mileage. I'm not a good runner but I improved a lot by running a lot of miles. I was curious if maybe the OP was doing 120 mile weeks to run his time or he was only doing 60 miles a week. Because if he was doing 60 mile weeks and then moved up in mileage he would probably see a big improvement. No idea what your problem w me is. I haven't run 13:30, I'm not a doctor who makes $2,000,000 a year so don't try and make me a typical lets run poster. I'm a no one in his 40s who loves running. Piss off.

Sorry, JAYG, I didn't mean to be such a dick. I was projecting my annoyance with other LR trends onto you, which I guess makes me just one more a-hole on here. Damn.

My main point was just to push back against what I see as the frequently perpetuated notion here that elite-level mileage is the norm among marathoners, even among fast marathoners (you did not say that; you were simply one data point in a larger trend to which I was reacting).

I want to encourage the OP by making the obvious-but-often-unspoken-here point that his strategy is a viable one, and that triple-digit weeks aren't necessary to run a fast marathon, is all. After a season of fast races, he could probably come back and run the exact same training program he just did and run a much faster marathon.

Dude if you are running 100+ mpw and all you got out of it was 16:50 that should tell you that you are wasting A LOT of time out there. Just doing more incorrectly is a terrible waste of effort.

"All" the people you know ran 120mpw before their marathon? That is pure BS.

I'm with ya wrote:And to the OP: Don't listen to the haters. Specificity yadda yadda, not that it's wrong, but going faster first does have its merits. You'll get stronger and continue to put in miles, which will improve your marathon time. Hell, traditionally most pros do short stuff first, when they're young, and then move up to marathons. If you do this for a while and then have the urge to train for another marathon, you'll be in better shape than you currently are. Go for it.

I wasn't hating. There's nothing wrong with dropping down to 5K and you will benefit by virtue of running consistently and getting some speed. It's just not the fastest path in my view to improving your marathon time. It may be a good mental break. 18-minute 5K on 65 mpw with a lot of aerobic work will be better marathon prep than an 18-minute 5K on 40 mpw focused on speedwork.

If you go back to marathoning, don't go back to whatever you were doing if you hate the 2.5-hour long runs. Go with Hansons or something else that doesn't emphasize what you don't want to do. And I agree that there's no need to run marathons if you don't like the training or the racing.

Regardless of how many miles you run a week, you should have three hard days with one of those three being a long run. The rest should be easy days. Whether you take that approach for 35 MPW or 135 MPW.

Thanks for the insights. I appreciate it all, even suggesting more mileage. I just think when faster, I can complete the mileage faster. A step down to 5km and 10km races will be welcome.

I also saw this great video by J. Daniels where he said something like casual runners running marathons have more or as much commitment as elites. He said something like an elite would never run a 3.5 hour run. I don't hate 2.5 hour runs, but I do have trouble getting out for 3.25-4 hour runs which at my MP + 1.5 minutes is how long they would take (20-24 milers).

Instead of doing time capped runs, I'm taking the forget it approach. I've done marathons and don't want to try again until they are under 3 hours.

As for the high mileage debate, I read about one 31 minute 10k guy that only trains 45-60 mpw (he's secret is he never gets injured).

You don't need to run any more than 2 hour long runs to run well at the marathon, regardless of how slow you are.

I have run many marathons, as many as 7 in a year, and gradually found that more than 20 was too much, and my results not as good. From then I reduced to 17 miles in less than 2 hours, just steady runs, and ran them a couple times a week. Three weeks before my fastest marathon, I ran a 2 hour time trial as fast as possible on the flat, and almost threw up afterwards, then I ran the same pace in the marathon over steep hills and where it was 95 degrees at the finish.

The key is to have a balance in your training. For me this meant being consistent with my mileage, 100 miles every week, tick tock tick tock, balanced with the long runs, 1:40 to 2 hours, 2 or 3 times a week, and a couple of marathon speed workouts each week. The mid week one was usually reps up to 4 miles, and the weekend one was usually a long time trial or race. The rest of it was all miles.

I race a 50k in the heat, temperature in the 90s, quite well off running no farther than 17 miles in my training. Mileage and consistence are much more important than the long runs, which are greatly overrated. Your diet is extremely important as well.

An 18 minute 5k is fast enough to break 2:50 in the marathon.

I think the issue for the OP is that you're wearing yourself out with the long runs, instead of being more consistent with your miles, and making sure you're recovering well from your training.