What are the US men missing in marathon training????

Obviously genes aren't the ONLY reason that East Africans are great distance runners, but there's no serious question that they have a significant genetic advantage. People who argue otherwise are the left-wing equivalent of global warming denyers. They ignore scientific consensus because it doesn't fit with their worldview.

Facts aren't racist.

Yes, but the fact that black people are more highly represented at higher levels of the sport (compare the NCAA to the NBA, and compare starters to substitutes) IS because of genetics. For one thing, blacks have a significantly longer reach than whites of the same height. When a genetic trait that is useful for a particular sport is found in most members of an ethnic group, the result is a rightward shift of the bell curve distribution of genetic potential for high level performance.

The shape of the distribution isn't the issue. The issue is where the bell curve is centered. Though, for what it's worth, the shape of the genetic bell curve most certainly does vary in different regions and ethnic groups. Depending on what traits you're looking at, there may be a huge amount of variation within a group, or very little. An obvious illustration of the point is the fact that all sub-saharan Africans have dark skin, despite the fact that most of the world's human genetic diversity is in sub-saharan Africa.

Nobody is arguing that the East African genetic advantage means that it's impossible for all whites to compete. There are always outliers. It does mean, however, that the all time lists will forever be dominated by East Africans.

Comparing skill sports with running is silly.

Not exactly. The Kalenjin are a nilotic people, as are many ethnic groups that have had distance running success. The Oromo have been inhabitants of Oromia for a much longer time.

Sagarin wrote:

It's certainly possible, though I would think somebody would've been busted or someone would've leaked this out. However, 2:03 is flying. I remember when the Djiboutians were having all of their success in the early-to-mid 80s and thought the performance peak was probably in the 2:04 range. Anyway, if Ritz is a high-2:06 guy on the perfect day, that is the equivalent of the WR back in 1988, which stood for a decade, a WR that Hall has bested.

That's the thing...Kenyans on the track were getting popped in small doses in 2012. That's what led to the 'whistleblower' report, by a Kenyan runner who tested positive, in German media regarding the traveling dope docs who went around treating 'injuries' at various training camps with steroids. They're just not big name runners, so they don't elicit any sort of response. It just seems odd to me that relatively unknown runners are popping up and running previously unfathomable times on the roads, yet track times have stalled or in some cases regressed from the peaks of the mid-late 90s. (with a few notable exceptions like Bekele or Rudisha) I know a lot has to do with tactics and money, but that only seems to underscore my suspicion. Why bother training and racing clean for years, only to lose a 5K in the last 100m, when you can have essentially free reign to pharmacologically enhance yourself and your training, get 1 or 2 big paydays, only get tested once or twice in your 'career' (after your competitions, during which there were no remaining traces of the drugs you took during training) and then retire to your farm compound for the next 30 to 40 years?

Secret Ingrediant wrote:

Our best US marathoner was 4+ minutes behind the no name 4th place finisher. We're missing something in training and racing.

US marathon problems-

Too much intensity

Wasting time weight training

not mentally committed to winning (see Tegs old guy comments, Ritz wanting a slower pace)

US Collegiate coaches

I'm not sifting through all of the thread, but I'm assuming that someone pointed out your incompetence as Ritz was only 2:49 behind Kogo, who is an Olympic medalist and 26:35 guy.

Also, weight training is important.

So all Kenyans/Ethiopians that beat the Americans are cheats huh?

That's ALOT of Kenyans and Ethiopians. There are over 600 guys that can run sub 2:14 in that region. Are they ALL cheats? Do you think maybe 10-15 of them can under sub 2:05 because there are 600 of them that can do sub 2:14?

How many western runners crack sub 2:14? You can probably count it with a few hands.

Just saying.

So you are saying that they are better not because they work harder, but simply because they are born superior?

What a cop out. If you keep thinking that way, you ALREADY lost.

They are NOT FACTS but conjectures.

To think that black people can play basketball better than white is absurd. Participation is key.

Think about it. What's the population in Jamaica? What's the population to the rest of the world? What are the chances that they have such superior genes that only they can run fast? Out of 7+billion people on earth, Jamaica's got what? 3million people?

What a joke of the comment.

Jamaican's only recently became fast. It's not like they have been fast for many generations. it's jut not true.

By stating your racist talk, you ignore the facts. The fact is, Africans started training earlier and have a better environment that's more productive to running. They excel because of opportunity cost.

I bet you that if enough white guys play badminton or ping pong they can do just as well as China. Are you saying that chinese are borned to play ping pong? Hear yourself man.

You can say the same for Ryan Hall or to Ritz.

One marathon major win, and you can retire a legend in America. Imagine a good looking white guy winning a Marathon Major in American soil. How much $$$ you can make. What do you say about that wise guy? Cat caught your tongue?

What's your freaking point?

If you want to be a closet racist go ahead. But to trying and pull these lame stunts is cowardly.

Sagarin wrote:

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

which school, primary or secondary or both? Anyway, Tergat's an outlier.

Most Kenyans and Ethiopians have thousands of miles of running on dirt prior to Americans starting.

Tergat is indeed an outlier, but this running as kids stuff is overrated. Many prominent American distance runners come from soccer backgrounds, where they put in plenty of unstructured miles and "fartlek-type" workouts. However, the Kenyans have grown up through many generations adapted to living and training at altitude, and most of the successful ones come from the Rift Valley, so to ignore genetics is silly. .

I agree with your overall point whole-heartedly. Of course the average east african is more active as a youth than the average american, but this myth that they all run 5 miles back and forth to school each day is simply that, a myth. And it is further a myth that there are virtually NO american kids who are extremely active as youths. I know so many kids that spend 1/2 their days running around like mad on the playground, riding their bikes everywhere, participating in aerobic sports like swim team or soccer from a very young age onwards, etc, etc. These kids are ACTIVE. And none grow up to be 2:04 marathoners. 99% of them don't have the talent to become 2:24 marathoners even if they pursue running with a passion and receive great coaching.

Even look at someone like Lance Armsrong: from a very young age he was training at HIGH volumes in the pool, on the bike, and then even adding in running. He was as driven and hard-working as any E African ever, and probably pushed himself in competitions as hard as anyone ever. AND he was on drugs. AND he showed immense talent at a young age. But even with ALLLLLLL of that, does anyone really think he could have been a 2:04/5 marathoner if he had made running his main sport early on?? Obviously we will never know, but I really, really highly doubt it.

Which is exactly what you are coming up, your opinion backed by nothing.

Black people, ON AVERAGE, do have some physical talents (sprinting, jumping, etc) that give them an advantage over whites. However, it is a skill sport, so these can be overcome more easily with perfection of skills (shooting, dribbling) and strategy (team dynamics) than in a pure fitness sport like running where skills and strategy matter little.

Do you think the average 6'9" person does not have an advantage in making the NBA over the average 5'4" person? Of course he does. And if there was an ethnicity with a plethora of 6'9" people and one with 5'4" people, do you think the former would have the advantage? Of course. Stop being absurd.

What's your point? West African descended people live in Jamaica. Their success if entirely compatible with the "the best genes/talent rise to the top" theory. THey have produced many champions just as the american blacks, like some Canadian and British blacks, and even some west african or other caribbean nations have. THE BEST WEST AFRICAN DESCENDED SPRINTERS ARE MORE TALENTED THAN THE BEST EURO DESCENDED SPRINTERS. Are you disputing this???? Of course culture always plays a role, but genes are supreme, if they are given a chance.

Not facts, your opinion. They are better because they have more talented runners that rise to the top.

skill sports are different than running. No matter how many hours you practice running, you are much more bound by your talent limitations than in a sport like ping pong, in which no special physical requirements are needed to excel. Hand -eye coordination/reaction time might be somewhat inborn, but it is malleable to a greater degree than endurance performance, where too much practice results in injury, sickness, physical burn-out, and stagnation, unless your talent is supreme. Sorry, ping pong is not distance running.

Saying that there is a genetic component to success in a particular sport is not racist. Saying that this genetic component might be more common in some populations that others is not racist.

You can take a quality like height as an example. Some populations have a higher average height than others, and some populations have more very tall or very short outliers and others. That is not racism, but objective fact. Height is a combination of genetic and environmental factors like nutrition. If you are trying to identify tall people (to be basketball players, for example) you will find more in countries with a combination of genetically taller people and good nutrition. That doesn't mean that tall people exist only in populations where they are common or where tall outliers are more common, just that there are likely more tall people.

The in-born genetic qualities that make someone a good sprinter or distance runner may be less obvious than height but there are plenty of signs that they exist. Saying that they exist is not racist but an attempt to describe reality.

They excel because of opportunity cost? I think you mean to say that Americans don't excel because of this - they choose the sport that will be potentially more lucrative perhaps and unfortunately most will never make a living doing that sport. And to this I agree - if inner city kids are given more opportunities to run, we might catch up. Endurance sports is one of the least diverse sports in the US - it's a shame.

Dude, you need to just stop and get back to class. I hear Sophmore year is a real killer these days.

Good post - forget 2:06 guys - I just want sub 2:10 guys! Right now we have an all time total of 16 sub 2:10 guys on non-aided courses. Japan has at least 60 guys! Sixty!! I know culture, popularity, yada yada yada, but that's a pretty big difference.

NIKE PAYS THEM WAY TOO MUCH (especially Teg).Africans are fighting for their lives.Americans aren't hungry enough.Watch the video of Allistair and Solinsky. They'd rather pace for cash.[/quote]We should give so much money to Kenya so that they'll be able to pay their runners a good amount of money and our whole country will be dirt poor. Then their runners will be satisfied with the money and our runners will be fighting for their lives.

DOLLAR BILLS ANYBODY wrote:

NIKE PAYS THEM WAY TOO MUCH (especially Teg).

Africans are fighting for their lives.

Americans aren't hungry enough.

Watch the video of Allistair and Solinsky. They'd rather pace for cash.

Using race as a excuse for your shortcomings is pathetic.

But you just said that black guys can play basketball better than white? What happened? You just said the in skilled sports, you have overcome it via skills?!??!?!?

Your logic doesn't make any sense.

Back to the height thing again .... you do know that the tallest population on earth on average are all living in Europe. Does that make them better basketball players? What about volleyball players?

You are being absurd.

If you use size as a measurement for running speed, what about Japanese and Asians? I thought Asians are small and weak and they have smaller eyes, so they must run really fast!!!!! Those americans have no chance against that advantage right?!?!?!?

Oh wait ....

Please ....

You can come up with all the obvious "advantages" and I can come up with all the counters to your logic.

You don't like my explainations, that's fine. Differences of opinion.

But I can tell you this. Africans aren't running faster because they have a better gene pool. WRONG. There's absolutely no proof other than the fact that their results are better than the rest of us. Doesn't mean that there's a correlation.

Your contradiction is so in your face that you really need to go through your own writing because you open your mouth. At least have a decency to apply logic to your arguments.

If you've got something important to say, go right at it. Telling people to go back to class makes you look like a tool.

Mid life crisis "Middle Aged Man"? If you want to go back to class, go right ahead. But don't project your desires onto me.

Stick to the topic or step aside and let the adults do the talking.

Your call.

800 dude wrote:

Obviously genes aren't the ONLY reason that East Africans are great distance runners, but there's no serious question that they have a significant genetic advantage. People who argue otherwise are the left-wing equivalent of global warming denyers. They ignore scientific consensus because it doesn't fit with their worldview.

Except for the fact that there is no scientific consensus like that. Any credible scientist will say that there is no evidence that genes have anything to do with differences in running ability. Stop making things up. There's no support at all saying that genes have ANYTHING to do with it.

The argument for genetic is flawed because as we all know, if you've got Usain Bolt genetics, of course you will win. So everytime we see Kenyans win, we'll automatically assume that it's genetics?

Another example. Weightlifting. Europeans and the Chinese do very well in the lightweight category? Genetics? Where does that end?

That's like saying if I have the sprinting power of Usain and endurance of Geb, and the power of a 400lbs weightlifer you are gonna win. What does that proof? It's an argument that have no meaning what so ever.

But there are ALOT of Kenyans and Ethiopians with those genetics apparently. So all those 2:05-2:10 guys are all genetic freaks. All these Usain Bolts running around. that's alot of "superior genes". Doesn't that make you question the gene argument?

Once we start using genes as the factor, there's no point of competing anymore because you mind as well go around town and call it gene doping.

What's next, which race have the highest IQ? Why don't we just do some stats gathering and find out the average IQ of all races on earth. The highest one must be the "superior race". End of story right?

If it's that simple, then we should all just roll over and be done with it.

When people say an athlete won the genetic lottery, it just apply to that individual. They are supposed to be an abnormally. Not some generalizations you apply to groups of individuals.

also hilarious that anyone could think that black people are genetically homogenous. are you kidding me? african americans are genetically similar enough to all have the "basketball gene"? think about the history of blacks in america. they were taken from africa - from many different countries, tribes, altitudes, etc. then, they've had a massive degree of mixing between those factors, because they ceased to mean as much in the new context of slavery and then after. think of the incredible variation that's now in that gene pool. and you're telling me that black people have a magic basketball gene? my god, you need to go read something about genetics.

Opiate for the Masses wrote:

Giant Johnson wrote:

After a quick wiki search: "the NBA in 2011 was composed of 83 percent non-white players, including 78 percent black".

I'm sure genetics has absolutely nothing to do with that statistic.

Does genetics have anything to do with why there are so many Latin Americans in baseball? What about Russians and hockey? Absolutely not. It's historical and cultural. In the case of baseball it began with exploitation of cheap labor. The players eventually gained more control over compensation and now baseball is seen as a way out of poverty for youths in Latin America. Whether that's right or wrong... still, it has nothing to do with genetics. Cultural, historical and monetary influences are highly complex but I believe they tell most of the story here just like they do in basketball, hockey, marathoning, etc.