Genetics get the applause

Cam L wrote:

It's funny how the harder I train, the more naturally talented I get.

Good, we can expect double gold at the next Olympics? How about a few world cross titles. Oh, and while you're at it, let's throw in a WR in the 3000? Remember, hard work is all you need.

genetics+work>work wrote:

How many 21 minute 5K runners that put in 40 miles a week for several years as a young adult do you see bump up to 110-140 miles per week and turn into 13 minute 5K guys?

If you ain't running something like 15 minute 5K's within 2 years of 40 mpw in High School AFTER your big growth spurt, it really ain't happening. Not going to become an elite.

Why do people that put in the same work, eat pretty similar diets, but have wildly divergent times?

1. not true, plenty of counterexamples

2. so you can see how "average" runners do NOT go through the same dedication as the elite

3. lots of reasons, different athletic backgrounds (e.g. one played soccer from young age, other was overweight as a kid), different aptitudes, some are naturally efficient and others learn it over time, some are slow at first but respond more to training, some are just "late bloomers"

Hardloper wrote:

1. not true, plenty of counterexamples

2. so you can see how "average" runners do NOT go through the same dedication as the elite

3. lots of reasons, different athletic backgrounds (e.g. one played soccer from young age, other was overweight as a kid), different aptitudes, some are naturally efficient and others learn it over time, some are slow at first but respond more to training, some are just "late bloomers"

Elites can train at a higher level because they are genetically gifted to...train at a higher level. Don't believe me? Proves us all wrong. Go and train and win Olympic gold and prove that all it takes is hard work.

Nuh wrote:

Elites can train at a higher level because they are genetically gifted to...train at a higher level. Don't believe me? Proves us all wrong. Go and train and win Olympic gold and prove that all it takes is hard work.

Can you prove to us that you're correct? There's absolutely no evidence that there's a such thing as "genetically gifted to train at a higher level".

Nuh wrote:

[quote]Hardloper wrote:

Elites can train at a higher level because they are genetically gifted to...train at a higher level.

Elites train at a higher level because they have conditioned themselves to...train at a higher level.

Saying it's mainly genetics will be idle speculation until scientists collect the DNA of a bunch of elites and figure out exactly which genes they all have that make them so fast.

And they'd have a hell of a time explaining why. Bolt for example has what should be genetic disadvantages. Nobody that big and tall should be that fast.

One thing nobody considers is early childhood development, which affects everything. Did they play sports, and which ones. Were they outdoor kids, or TV kids? How soon did they learn to walk? Early development is recognized as crucial in education, but ignored in athletics.

bad genetics isn't a reason not to try. I started out running 5ks in the 24s, and in fact was over 25 once my freshman year of xc, despite having been training seriously since last april. From there I've worked my times down to a respectable level. Its taken workouts that were gut wrenching for me, 20+ mile days, etc. I'm certain nearly everyone can surprise themselves with how fast they will run if they don't worry about genetics and stick with the sport.

genetically motivatex wrote:

Elites train at a higher level because they have conditioned themselves to...train at a higher level.

Ha ha. I think a workout that Bekele would probably need to be able to do to run 12:37 would be, say, 12x400 @ 58-59ish with :45 - 1:00 rest? Sound good? So, you're saying, that if you just simply "condition yourself" you're going to be able to run that?

There's no doubt in my mind that Kennedy went into the '96 5k having worked harder than anyone else in the world. And, in my mind, he ran a smarter race than anyone else in the field. But there was no way he was going to out run Niyongabo.

Nuh wrote:

Ha ha. I think a workout that Bekele would probably need to be able to do to run 12:37 would be, say, 12x400 @ 58-59ish with :45 - 1:00 rest? Sound good? So, you're saying, that if you just simply "condition yourself" you're going to be able to run that?

There's no doubt in my mind that Kennedy went into the '96 5k having worked harder than anyone else in the world. And, in my mind, he ran a smarter race than anyone else in the field. But there was no way he was going to out run Niyongabo.

Bekele didn't start out doing that workout. There was a time when he was only a 5:00 miler.

And no way was Kennedy the hardest working guy that year. That is clearly wrong.

lsl wrote:

Bekele didn't start out doing that workout. There was a time when he was only a 5:00 miler.

And no way was Kennedy the hardest working guy that year. That is clearly wrong.

So, what are you waiting for? Get to work. Because every 5:00 miler can, if they work hard enough, run 12:37...right?

Nuh wrote:

say, 12x400 @ 58-59ish with :45 - 1:00 rest? Sound good? So, you're saying, that if you just simply "condition yourself" you're going to be able to run that?

Precisely. If one contitions themselves to run that workout, then one can run that work out. Attributing it to conditioning is just as valid as attributing it to genetics.

genetically motivatex wrote:

Attributing it to conditioning is just as valid as attributing it to genetics.

No, athletic conditioning is scientifically proven to exist. Athletic genetics limitations aren't.

Nuh wrote:

lsl wrote:

Bekele didn't start out doing that workout. There was a time when he was only a 5:00 miler.

And no way was Kennedy the hardest working guy that year. That is clearly wrong.

So, what are you waiting for? Get to work. Because every 5:00 miler can, if they work hard enough, run 12:37...right?

I'm not waiting for anything. I do not wish to run the 5000 or track at all. I never said it's all about working hard enough, so why are you asking me to agree with you?

fifjj wrote:

athletic conditioning is scientifically proven to exist.

um, okay.

lsl wrote:

I'm not waiting for anything. I do not wish to run the 5000 or track at all. I never said it's all about working hard enough, so why are you asking me to agree with you?

Ok, in that case: thanks for letting us know that Bekele was once a 5:00 miler and Kennedy was under prepared in '96.

Nuh wrote:

Ok, in that case: thanks for letting us know that Bekele was once a 5:00 miler and Kennedy was under prepared in '96.

Why are you being like that? You made incorrect points and I corrected them. And now you're doing it again. I didn't say Kennedy was under prepared. I said that he clearly wasn't the hardest working runner that year.

lsl wrote:

Why are you being like that? You made incorrect points and I corrected them. And now you're doing it again. I didn't say Kennedy was under prepared. I said that he clearly wasn't the hardest working runner that year.

Well wouldn't he have to be? If he's in it for the gold and he's not the hardest worker in the field, wouldn't it make sense that he would be under prepared if he's in it to win!?

I think I'm out. I'll leave it on a high note - still one of the best races ever by a US runner.

Just the opportunity to run hard workouts with a good group of faster people is sufficient to bring dramatic improvements. Look at the top high schools in the country. If there were more post-collegiate groups out there at varying levels, you'd see a lot more people running above their "genetic" limits.

Genetics is the cake.

PEDSs are the icing.

Training - the color of the icing.