There IS no such thing as intrinsic value, unless you believe everything has value because it is all the work of god.
Bitcoin is a token, a convertible representation of value, like anything: casino chips, currency coinage and bills, IOU’s, a ski pass, a passport, stock certificate, etc.
Value is ALL situational, including food, fresh water, fire…everything.
You guys are really simple.
'intrinsic value' in investing is generally defined by the cash flow the investment provides. BTC provides zero cash flow. It is strictly a 'greater fool' investment, and those rarely work out. Especially new ones.
That said, it does serve as a conduit to get money out of fiat currencies. Which is worth something, as I said.
But it's just like saying 'Currency in my town isn't worth much in the next town over. So I'll buy this special rock for $10. I will go to that other town and try to get $10 or even $11 for this rock in their currency. To get that, I just need to find someone in the other town who needs to come to my town without his own currency.
Hope it works!'
This post was edited 52 seconds after it was posted.
Rise of Bitcoin tracking speculative areas of equity market. Driven by the same dynamics of previous unhinged episodes. Better than 50% chance it ends in pain.
A good old ‘murican dollar bill also has no intrinsic value, we’ve simply all agreed to use it (and all other fiat currencies) as a basis for exchange for goods, with a value that varies in part based on what it’s formally pegged against (if anything) and largely based on collective psychology, supply and demand. If at some point most of us have agreed to allow its use in similar (if perhaps substantially different) ways, BTC also has value, intrinsic or not.
I do not own any crypto and have no plans to, mainly because I’m an old dog suspicious of new tricks. But I recognize there’s a good chance I’m shooting myself in the foot.
A good old ‘murican dollar bill also has no intrinsic value, we’ve simply all agreed to use it (and all other fiat currencies) as a basis for exchange for goods, with a value that varies in part based on what it’s formally pegged against (if anything) and largely based on collective psychology, supply and demand. If at some point most of us have agreed to allow its use in similar (if perhaps substantially different) ways, BTC also has value, intrinsic or not.
I do not own any crypto and have no plans to, mainly because I’m an old dog suspicious of new tricks. But I recognize there’s a good chance I’m shooting myself in the foot.
yeah I hear you on the dollar, but fact is, the dollar's utility as a currency is widespread. You can exchange it for just about anything on the planet. Or you can put it in the bank and get interest (cash flow).
You can't do that for BTC. You can't buy things with it. It doesn't have the utility of an actual currency. it's just a rock that you hope someone else will pay more for later.
A good old ‘murican dollar bill also has no intrinsic value, we’ve simply all agreed to use it (and all other fiat currencies) as a basis for exchange for goods, with a value that varies in part based on what it’s formally pegged against (if anything) and largely based on collective psychology, supply and demand. If at some point most of us have agreed to allow its use in similar (if perhaps substantially different) ways, BTC also has value, intrinsic or not.
I do not own any crypto and have no plans to, mainly because I’m an old dog suspicious of new tricks. But I recognize there’s a good chance I’m shooting myself in the foot.
yeah I hear you on the dollar, but fact is, the dollar's utility as a currency is widespread. You can exchange it for just about anything on the planet. Or you can put it in the bank and get interest (cash flow).
You can't do that for BTC. You can't buy things with it. It doesn't have the utility of an actual currency. it's just a rock that you hope someone else will pay more for later.
Either you're dim, or you haven't thought this out.
1) you CAN buy things with BTC, including but not limited to USD, GBP, EUR, and just about whatever other fiat token you wish
2) you can do that purchasing wherever, and whenever you wish, as long as there is internet--which is everywhere
3) your actual cash flow with USD is negative as inflation kills its purchasing power faster than it is increased by interest
4) USD etc cost a much greater fraction of its value to transmit than does BTC, especially via wire.
5) you absolutely can cash flow BTC by lending it to someone who uses it as collateral in a transaction, and charging for that utility
6) blockchain entries are traceable and have aml benefit, unlike physical USD notes, which are the preferred currency of black marketeers, terrorists, and criminals around the world
7) until you make an accounting for the full environmental impact of the fiat system with physical notes, credit, etc., don't talk to me about thousands of 700W mining chips
8) BTC is much more secure from theft, possibly also more secure from unlawful government seizure such as civil asset forfeiture, throttling like during lockdowns, or expropriation via things like bail-in's.
Come on guys, be smarter. At least have a more complete view.
yeah I hear you on the dollar, but fact is, the dollar's utility as a currency is widespread. You can exchange it for just about anything on the planet. Or you can put it in the bank and get interest (cash flow).
You can't do that for BTC. You can't buy things with it. It doesn't have the utility of an actual currency. it's just a rock that you hope someone else will pay more for later.
Either you're dim, or you haven't thought this out.
1) you CAN buy things with BTC, including but not limited to USD, GBP, EUR, and just about whatever other fiat token you wish
2) you can do that purchasing wherever, and whenever you wish, as long as there is internet--which is everywhere
3) your actual cash flow with USD is negative as inflation kills its purchasing power faster than it is increased by interest
4) USD etc cost a much greater fraction of its value to transmit than does BTC, especially via wire.
5) you absolutely can cash flow BTC by lending it to someone who uses it as collateral in a transaction, and charging for that utility
6) blockchain entries are traceable and have aml benefit, unlike physical USD notes, which are the preferred currency of black marketeers, terrorists, and criminals around the world
7) until you make an accounting for the full environmental impact of the fiat system with physical notes, credit, etc., don't talk to me about thousands of 700W mining chips
8) BTC is much more secure from theft, possibly also more secure from unlawful government seizure such as civil asset forfeiture, throttling like during lockdowns, or expropriation via things like bail-in's.
Come on guys, be smarter. At least have a more complete view.
yeah sure you can go shopping with bitcoin hah. Get serious.
and of course you have to pay taxes on it if you get lucky and it goes up and you sell.
You can get cash flow from USD by loaning to others, such as a normal bank. So no advantage bitcoin there.
You can send USD free by multiple services.
Your points aren't all that useful. I could poke holes in each.
Look you aren't teaching me anything but you seem happy to help. Thanks!
Either you're dim, or you haven't thought this out.
1) you CAN buy things with BTC, including but not limited to USD, GBP, EUR, and just about whatever other fiat token you wish
2) you can do that purchasing wherever, and whenever you wish, as long as there is internet--which is everywhere
3) your actual cash flow with USD is negative as inflation kills its purchasing power faster than it is increased by interest
4) USD etc cost a much greater fraction of its value to transmit than does BTC, especially via wire.
5) you absolutely can cash flow BTC by lending it to someone who uses it as collateral in a transaction, and charging for that utility
6) blockchain entries are traceable and have aml benefit, unlike physical USD notes, which are the preferred currency of black marketeers, terrorists, and criminals around the world
7) until you make an accounting for the full environmental impact of the fiat system with physical notes, credit, etc., don't talk to me about thousands of 700W mining chips
8) BTC is much more secure from theft, possibly also more secure from unlawful government seizure such as civil asset forfeiture, throttling like during lockdowns, or expropriation via things like bail-in's.
Come on guys, be smarter. At least have a more complete view.
yeah sure you can go shopping with bitcoin hah. Get serious.
and of course you have to pay taxes on it if you get lucky and it goes up and you sell.
You can get cash flow from USD by loaning to others, such as a normal bank. So no advantage bitcoin there.
You can send USD free by multiple services.
Your points aren't all that useful. I could poke holes in each.
Look you aren't teaching me anything but you seem happy to help. Thanks!
You're a small-minded fool.
Get out more. I can buy tons of things with BTC, both in the USA and elsewhere, including houses, cars, and other fiat currencies--in short, everything you can buy with fiat itself. And the USD is a unique case, recognized everywhere, because of its black market use. Other fiats are not so recognized. vs other fiats, BTC is great and actually universally accepted. Try taking your Bhat to Iraq and see how easy it is to spend.
Taxes are only on capital GAINS, something you will NEVER experience with USD. And I would point out that you pay taxes on USD INTEREST, which is a higher rate than on BTC GAINS. Are you in high school?
The fact that you can also loan fiat does not negate the FACT that you can loan BTC, which is one aspect of its utility, which was the first place you set your goalpost.
You CANNOT send USD free for all transactions, especially worldwide, many of which require a bank transfer (now $40-$50), plus currency conversion fee, which is now a huge percentage unless you are sending over 250k, when you finally get a better rate. But you probably don't know this, as it is outside your tiny orbit.
You can't "poke holes" in squat, nor HAVE you. You're just some guy who is afraid to admit that his bias had made him say stupid things.
to the best of my knowledge, bitcoin is not a widely accepted currency with which to buy most items. I do remember when some vendors and outlets tried it for a brief while, quite some time ago, and it was always at a premium such that few would want to suffer the increased fees associated with doing so.
I think it's still possible to use it to buy some cars.
As an everyday utilitarian currency, I don't know that it has been adopted in any meaningful way.
to the best of my knowledge, bitcoin is not a widely accepted currency with which to buy most items. I do remember when some vendors and outlets tried it for a brief while, quite some time ago, and it was always at a premium such that few would want to suffer the increased fees associated with doing so.
I think it's still possible to use it to buy some cars.
As an everyday utilitarian currency, I don't know that it has been adopted in any meaningful way.
I never made the claim that it was currently "an everyday utilitarian currency" in the USA.
However, even in the USA, it is gaining traction in those transactions much hated by the government, p2p. I know someone who just booked somebody's ski chalet in the USA and paid entirely with BTC. Thousands of dollars worth of BTC.
Regardless, my points stand. And the world is a lot bigger than the USA, and getting bigger every day. Just the other day BRICS detailed its efforts to hone a common digital currency. Not BTC, but it points the way.
Don't generalize your own limited experience. Where I am visiting in the USA right now, the Mexican groundskeepers get paid completely in BTC, and they love it.
“Don't generalize your own limited experience. Where I am visiting in the USA right now, the Mexican groundskeepers get paid completely in BTC, and they love it.”
Earnings Scorecard: For Q1 2024 (with 6 S&P 500 companies reporting actual results), 6 S&P 500 companies have reported a positive EPS surprise and 2 S&P 500 companies have reported a positive revenue surprise.
Rise of Bitcoin tracking speculative areas of equity market. Driven by the same dynamics of previous unhinged episodes. Better than 50% chance it ends in pain.
Blue is the ETF $TQQQ, 3x leveraged QQQ Orange is the price of Bitcoin.
The measure is the cumulative change in prices from January 1, 2018, to yesterday (6 1/4 years).
Chief Economics Correspondent of the WSJ rolled his eyes at the prospect of a soft landing. But here we are. Probably.
Six months ago 1 million views, an expert, and (probably) wrong.
Nick Timiraos @NickTimiraos Almost every hard landing looks at first like a soft landing What's standing in the way of a soft landing now: -The Fed staying too high for too long -A too-hot economy -A rise in oil prices -A financial market rupture "Planes land. Economies don't."
Remember this hot bonfire of the money? A year ago.
A prediction of hyper-inflation with a 90-day timeframe.
James Medlock @jdcmedlock I'll bet anyone $1 million dollars that the US does not enter hyperinflation 5:31 PM · Mar 16, 2023 · 8.3M Views
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Balaji @balajis I will take that bet. You buy 1 BTC. I will send $1M USD. This is ~40:1 odds as 1 BTC is worth ~$26k. The term is 90 days. All we need is a mutually agreed custodian who will still be there to settle this in the event of digital dollar devaluation. If someone knows how to do this with a smart contract, we can do it on chain, so I can send USDC. If you won't do that, name a custodian. #BitSignal
