couch to legit runner: 5 year plan?

If "you" have really been running for 36 months now and have barely touched speedwork in that whole time, it's no surprise if you can't break 60 seconds in the 400. If you COULD do that, that would be more of a surprise!

"You" have proven that you can get up to higher mileage. Now it's time to drop a notch in mileage and start putting in some quality. If you've been comfortably running 60+ for the past 6 months now, I'd go for 50-55. It might be a real shock to your system.

At this point, running a hot track workout should seem absolutely delectable.

as far as the PF, try running barefoot on grass for 5-10 minutes at least 4 days a week and see if that strengthens it back to normal.

Also, do strides.

Thanks a lot for the replies.

I figured a sub 60 400m was a fairly common thing, especially for sub 17 5k guys and whatnot. Glad to hear it takes a bit of work to get there so maybe after a summer of more focused training I'll be under.

I'm going to give it a shot and drop mileage down to 45-55. I'll start riding my bike a bit more I think, maybe it\\\'ll help stretch out my calves a bit more.

Going to the track today and will run on the infield barefoot for a while.

Think I'm going to cut out my morning doubles for a bit as it seems hard on my stiff foot but afternoon runs are generally better. I'll try some flying 30s and a lot more strides, too.

Kind of looking forward to it. It'll be different at least!

Like others said, just getting on the track and running fast is going to help lower your 400m time, but you should include some hills as well.

A few of my favorite hill sessions:

Canova Hills - a long warm up (20-30 minutes), then 10x10second sprints up a fairly steep hill @ 90% effort. Walk down recovery, plus about 60 seconds standing. Followed by long cooldown (20 minutes or more). Your first time out, maybe you only do 5 or 6, then build up each week to 10 or 12. I think a session like this should be down once every two weeks, throughout a year of training, except during tapers.

Hills to Track - 15 minute warm up, then 6-10x200m hill sprints @ mile pace. Walk/jog down hill recovery. Following the hills, run to (preferably) a track. Do a 200m for every hill sprint you did, @ mile pace again, dropping the last few to around 800m pace. So a session might be 10x200m Hill @ 35-37 seconds, 10x200m Track @ 33-35 seconds (dropping the last few). 10 minute cooldown. This is a good workout when you're transitioning from base building to competition season.

Hill Circuits - warm up. Find between a mile or a two mile loop, with 3-5 decent hills that are rolling. Run the uphills at tempo EFFORT, the downhills slowly to recover, and the flats at normal easy pace to slightly faster. Run for time or mileage, but be sure not to burn yourself on the uphill effort. It should be at tempo effort, not tempo pace. End with a cooldown. I would substitute this for a tempo run during base phase once a month or so, to work on changing paces over a variety of terrain. It'll be a butt-kicking workout.

Good luck with your training, be sure to let us know how everything goes.

First of all, don't be too hard on yourself. After only 2.5 years running, PRs of high 16, and low 35 are very good.

Second, I'm not that familiar with 400m equivalent times, but looking at the Mcmillan calculator, I guessed "high 16" was 16:48, and get a 400m equivalent of 59.4. So, your 60-61 is pretty much right on the mark... especially considering you haven't worked at that pace for 2.5 years! I certainly would not call it a huge weak area. Why do you feel it is?

Third, I think the suggestion of adding in a little faster work is a good idea, but I would work into it lightly and keep the mileage mostly up. Ok to drop a bit initially, but get it back up fairly soon.

Hills are great. Hudson recommends the 8-10 second hill sprints to help neuromuscularly. That might be exactly what is going on with your pains.

Daniels recommends Repetitions (up to 90 seconds, say) at your mile race pace, with full recoveries. These are the transition between base phase and race-specific intervals and threshold work. I think 4-6 weeks of this before a speedwork phase would make a lot of sense. These aren't sprints... just light quick turnover to work on turnover and economy, and prepare for harder intervals to come.

You should prepare for the Repetition phase by doing strides after an easy run 2-4x per week for 2-3 weeks at the end of your base phase.

If it were me, I'd do the following:

-2-3 more weeks of base, but add in strides 3 times per week, and one day of hill sprints

-A 4-6 week Repetition phase. Once per week, do sets of 2x200m and 1x400m around mile race pace. Full walk/jog recoveries. Start lower volume and work up to 5% of your weekly mileage at most.

-A 4-6 week Interval phase; typical 3k-5k pace workout, 1x per week; Stuff like 4-5x1000m, 4x1200m, with equal (duration) recovery jogs. Also a cruise interval workout or short tempo run during the week if you feel good. Strides 1-2 times per week.

-Taper/Race season: keep the workouts, just dial them back by about 20%. Start racing regularly 5k-10k distances. Priority is on staying fresh & recovering.

Then, take a few weeks off/easy to recharge, and start over a new season. If all went well, bump the mileage by about 5-10 miles per week & repeat.

Pick up Daniels Running Formula and read up on how to fill in the gaps in your training. You've done some awesome work up to this point building your base... just need to see how to fit all the pieces together!

Good luck!

cry for help wrote:

I figured a sub 60 400m was a fairly common thing, especially for sub 17 5k guys and whatnot.

I know a host of guys between 15:30 and 15 flat (myself being one of them) who have never broken 60 in a 400.

Also, I find that running in the morning aggravates injuries because everything is so stiff. Better to let things loosen up over the course of the day. Don't see much of a point in doubling below 80 MPW anyway....

Hey- thanks again for the great replies.

Unfortunately (fortunately?) I've been doing hill sprints. I started off with 5x10s and marked the distance and have actually improved those down to low 9s. I also sometimes do 4 of those and then another couple of "100m" hill sprints finishing further on up the hill and have had about a one second improvement on those. I do them 1-2x a week.

It didn't seem to correlate to the track very well, though. Here's a thread about it:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5229785&page=0

Maybe I've just got the wrong perspective about things. I just read a lot about much slower guys running sub 60 and it seems like quite a few high schoolers do it (say they do it) off of very little training so I thought it was more common. I never ran in hs or college and have never done group runs or trained with anyone so I just go by what I read on the 'net.

Funny enough, my 5k pr IS exactly 16:48. I hadn't checked the McMillan calculator yet but if just a pinch under 60 is an equivalent performance then I feel a lot better about that.

These responses make me feel a lot better. I guess I was just worried that I don't seem to have much speed and at some point that may start holding me back so maybe it's better to start working on that now even if it means scaling back mileage a little.

I've got DRF so will look through that more closely. And thanks for the hill workout suggestions SMNrunner.

And interesting to hear such faster 5k guys aren't necessarily breaking 60 to run that fast.

Thanks again.

Don't sweat the 400m time.

I started out age 15 with no training and could run about 5:10 for the mile. Within a year, with PRs of 2:14 for 800m, 4:40 for 1600m, 10:08 for 3200m, 16:39 for 5000m, and 34:41 for 10000m, my 400m PR was 59.7. I did a fair amount of speedwork at the time.

A year later I was running 55.0 for 400m.

Also, within two years of the 59.7, I ran 2:00 for the 800m and 4:18 for the 1600m. I eventually ran 15:45 for 5000m and probably had a ton of upside above that but my training was totally stupid (it was the 90s).

Keep your mileage steady and start actually working on speed. You will see your shorter distance times drop dramatically and this will eventually help your longer distance times.

Also, I'd be real surprised if you couldn't at least break 4:50 for the mile right now, even without improving your speed.

I also knew a guy who in high school ran mid 56s for 400m and later as a college/pro runner could probably not break 58 for 400m but ran 2:02/4:18/8:48/14:10/29:20/1:04/2:13, so speed, while helpful, is not essential to running fast at the middle and longer distances.