Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 5/26

numbersguy - it's the best way to do it. All my run distances are estimates based on measured routes. The only runs I time or measure accurately are my track sessions. I don't own a garmin.

Rushed - when is this race? Looks like you've been building slowly and sensibly. I find that sessions like the one you are planning get me in good 10k shape very quickly.

bones - welcome.

NJ Truth - looking forward to seeing what you can do for 10k. I've really been enjoying focusing on shorter race distances recently.

Pikachu - good week of training. 53s for 300 must have been fairly comfortable for you, even doing 20 of them. What was the thinking behind this session?

Steve in Alaska - hope you're coping OK with being injured. Keep your chin up.

Bonham - I have a protein shake after most runs and I'm definitely not a 'Schwarzenneger type.' I think it's a bit of a myth, like the one about distance runners not doing weights in case they bulk up.

np1112 - that is a great long run. Tough. 16 miles at target pace spread over 2 1/2 hours - very impressive.

reed - well done on the PB.

pablo - well done on the 5k.

...and to those who asked about the race: it was a combined counties race so I was actually 4th in the race and had company most of the way. I didn't wear a watch but my splits were roughly 3:03,3:03,3:06,3:06,3:06. I had very little left at the end and only closed in around 71.

easy weeks: sorry about the rough week. hopefully you get get back to your plan next week. This is new training for me. Previously my longest training run was 24. The 27 went really well yesterday. Treated it like a marathon with fluids and gels. My coach mentioned that rob de castella, former marathon WR holder did up to 30mi runs. So we will see and I will update things every week of course.

berryman: sounds like a good plan for the build up. Thats a great pace to be bringing it home in.

xenon: I know what you mean. I will still try and do what my schedule says even if i feel like crap. but that is what the coach is there for haha

renewed: nice normal easy week. i bet that is nice and stress free haha.

pablo: regardless of time, great race. glad you are "on track" for the half. that is why i dont drink much anymore haha. I did have a beer at dinner last night. first in i dont know how long.

yuri: glad the first intro speed session went well. maybe the no watch was good for you. since it was your first, just getting used to things again were better than seeing times.

muebele: hope the chiro visit get you back to normal. i would be afraid to hit a pot hole or uneven surface running after dark. but thats better than dying in the heat? haha

ghola: nice workouts. love how you progressed well at the ends of each one.

angel: impressive week on 6 days! how do you like those doubles where you run short and then a med-long run?

Bonham: goal time for grandmas is still up in the air. I was hoping for ~238 at boston but just wasnt ready for that course. I am still undecided how I want to pace myself. As of now I am thinking go out at ~240 and try to neg split. Really need to at least PR so i dont get mad at myself haha.

numbers: youre fine. it is hard to convey yourself on the internet instead of in person haha. no worries we are all hear to help, learn and be friendly.

has been: nice week and workouts. agree on the solo track workouts are much harder.

Pablo: Very good 5 K - in terms of 5 K speed you definitely have the 1:07:xx in you!

Brum: Ahhh, you got me! The 20 x 300 workout indeed was a pretty comfortable one. I am still building my speed and I am very cautious doing this, as I tend to burn out pretty fast, when I do too hard stuff that provoces high lactate levels. The thought that my coach has with those kind of intervalls is to run fast (here: around 10 K goal pace in fall), but to stay relaxed and almost 100 % in the aerobic zone.

Is this the best way to train? I have no clue - but it works way better for me than "ball buster workouts" :-) It often amazes me, when people run stuff like 8 x 1 K @ 5 K pace, etc. I never could do that in practise without killing me for the rest of the week... Even 8 x 1 K at 10 K pace is a hard training for me. But of course I am a marathoner and more a strenght/endurance than a speed guy :-)

Thanks for the concern. My only "injury" is 2 marathons in 5 weeks and I fell of Mt. Pocono in the second. 2280' feet of descent and 860' of climbing. Everything is fine, I'm just trying to be smart coming back from the efforts.

Rushed - Really nice tempo run. I wish I could run that even for a long tempo.

Bones - sorry if I missed it, but what is you marathon history and have you used the Hansons plan before? I'm at least going to read the book and may think about it whenever my next marathon comes around.

NJ Truth - Some nice workouts in there. No formal goals here yet, but I do think I want to work on speed and tempos over the summer.

Pikachu - great week. What is the official goal for the 10k?

Brum - Welcome back. I'd wish you luck in the 3k, but it looks like you are running well enough that you don't really need it.

Xenon - I don't think it was laziness or a red flag, just the normal ebb and flow of hard training. That being said, I think you were right on with backing off when things didn't feel great. We should all be that proactive.

SteveAK - I fought with a bursitis in my heel for months until I finally sucked it up, took an anti-inflammatory and didn't run a step for two weeks. That allowed the inflammation to go down and allow me to go forward.

Bonham - Well, you are officially part of the thread now. It seems to jinx everyone with a course issue at some point.

NP1112 - 27 and 30 mile workouts??? Damn. Good luck and make sure you recover thoroughly from those long efforts.

StevenJ - Does that mean you went to HS in SE PA?

reed - 2 PR's in one race = AWESOME!

Nick83 - Nice race trifecta.

Pablo - Garmins are notoriously off compared to a certified course. Unfortunately they almost always say it was longer, not shorter. With your current focus however, I'm sure an honest 14:50 is on it's way.

A few quick responses:

Race update: I'm actually switching to the 3k, since it's going to be really hot on Friday, and the standard for club nationals from the 3k is much easier than for the 5k (9:02.5 vs. 15:30, and I think I should be able to hit 9 flat even in the heat).

The race is in West Chester, PA (not Westchester, NY). I did not go to high school in the area, but up near Rochester, NY. This race has been a pretty quality one, especially last year (3 guys sub 3:42 in the 15, 5 guys hitting 1:46 in the 8), though it appears the quality doesn't quite extend to the 3k and 5k.

reed: Congrats on the PR! Sorry to hear that the groin strain affected the race, but good to know that you'll have more in the tank the next time.

Slartzio: Awesome to hear that you're pain free!

easy weeks: Sorry to hear about the life troubles. Hope things turn around for you soon. As for the beer mile, if you can do a 6:20 in 5:10 shape I will be duly impressed by your drinking ability!

xenonscreams: Yeah, racing the 400 is hard. I usually run the first 100 pretty aggressively (close to all out), "coast" the next 100, then just run as hard as I can for the last 200 and try to ignore the pain.

Numbersguy: Yeah, if I'm going to make a serious attempt, I'll probably have to learn how to chug out of a can. I'm definitely not a strong drinker.

pablo: Even if that 5k was a bit short, that's still really impressive, especially for a road race!

Ghola: I like how your LT pace isn't too far off from what you started your mile pace repeats at! Hope your foot is alright after the attempted Thursday workout.

The Angel of Death: I guess you're back to about the usual.

Bonham: Oh, geez. I don't know if I'll be able to handle the pressure! You'll probably be waiting a pretty long time for my next beer mile, though.

To close, I think I remember someone asking what the beer of choice was for the beer mile. We used Bud Heavy.

StevenJ - small world, that is my hometown. Those race sat Henderson High School usually do draw some stiff competition, and it is a pretty fast track, at least I think it is. Good luck with the race and the heat

Numbersguy : Here's no not concerning oneself with such precise numbers from the GPS watch! Seriously, I used to do the same thing, but it just got to be a bit frustrating, and (as lame as this sounds) embarrassing to show my training logs to others as they would inevitably question me on why I felt it was necessary to do so...then cue a lecture on how GPS watches aren't perfectly accurate all the time, etc., etc. Ain't no body got time for that! You'll get used to it soon, man. Excellent move and solid second week back!

VF : Ahh... the familiar berating of oneself for partaking in activities after a hard race. Know that feel, bud. It may sound odd, but try and enjoy this weird, goalless, in-between time. It's good to be in an in-between place every so often - lets the body AND mind rest up a bit.

NJTruth : Solid session this past week, dude. Good call not being like some people and giving yourself such excessive rest on those 400m reps... and yeah, man, I loooaatthheee having to amend sessions due to lane issues. It isn't often, but god it's a pain in the ass. But, as you said, take it as an introductory workout to help you adapt to doing the session at pace in the type of shyte conditions these next few months will bring.

Pikachu : I hate you for loving the long stuff like that! Haha. Man, that kind of session really grinds on me really hard, so I'm actually quite jealous to be honest. That's a big week too, budday! Something about doing a 70+ min run and coming back later that day for another just... not appealing to me yet. I'll be looking to you for some insight on how to change these feelings - keep rockin that shit, dude!

Brum : Noooiiice! Killin' it with a PB coming off a weeking with three hard race efforts - impressive! Glad you were able to come off feeling under the weather to knock out a good one. And I love seeing all of the Euro guys on this thread and how you have such cool events like the County Champs and Club competitions. Really wish we had a set up like that here instead of just... endless 5k fun runs. Ughhhh.

SteveInAlaska : 630min of f*ck my life sounds more like it. Chriiiist! I about went mad back when I was injured just trying to crack out 300-400!! (Never made that goal)

You must have one hell of an audio book collection, champ! (haha)

Bonham : Man, hate races like that. I've had such good experiences, personally, that I can't believe event staff can be so incompetent as to let stuff like that happen. Sorry, bro.

NP : I like the idea of focusing on long sessions but with moderate overall weekly volume. But I'm just wondering how a 30M run with 20M of it at GMP will affect the body. My only worry, if I was you, is that I could be sacrificing some other quality work in order to get in these monster sessions. Obviously it is necessary, but maybe if things were moderated a bit... I don't know, man, it just seems like an awful big hit to the system to do monster workouts like that. But, should you come out the other end and not have cooked your endocrine system trying to recover and deal with them, you'll sure as shit have MP ingrained and down!

I'm really interested to see how this all works out, as it's a training model I've actually considered myself. Looks like the 4x4M went well, so here's to it all paying off. Just please, do be careful if you start feeling like total donkey shit? I've wrecked my body and gotten Chronic Fatigue/Adrenal Fatigue before, it's not fun. Not at allll.

StevenJ : Drunk reunions, hells yeah! I've got a couple of those coming up soon, feeling you on that!

(Answer to drinking question from last week: I maybe have a class of wine or a beer 1-3 times per week with a meal or sitting around. Once every 6-12 weeks though I usually have a chance to go out with our crew and we'll have considerably more. Probably get full on, angry, heckling muggles at the club, trying to start fights, poor decisions, good times drunk 2-3 times a year at most. (2xPost NCAA party, MAYYYBE 1 other over the summer)/at a wedding. I'm a lightweight though and can feel good after a single drink, so it's not really a everyday thing for me to imbibe.

Pablo Grinding as always, dude. Nice to see you snagged another W (though f*ck whatever race it was that ran short!). Sorry it was a disappointment afterwards to learn it may have been off - like you said, though, still a good effort in line with your half goal. Regarding the long run: remember, it's the most overrated part of 10k-1/2 marathon racing (at least I feel so), so don't even worry on it.

MY Stuff:

Goal: Peactree (7/4); Top 15 American

Next: Run for the Pies(6/22); Win

M- AM: 11*

PM: 4 (28:30)

T- AM: 9 (1:04:30)

PM: 4 (27:40)

W- AM: 9 (1:06:45)

PM: 4 (29:10)+6xstride

Th- AM:10**

PM: 4 (29:55)

F- AM: 10 (1:14)

PM: 4+ (30:00)w/Lightposts

Sa- AM: 17 (2:03:30)

Su- PM: 6 (47:00)+6xstride

Total: 92

*2M w/u+drills+3xstride. Wanted 9M total doing 3 different paced cut-downs startign @ 5:20 and progressing 5s each mile. Ended up cutting it at 7M as it was hot as all shit out and I was falling off pace. splits: 5:21-5:12-5:08-5:51-5:15-5:14-5:08.

Not a good morning.

**2M w/u+drills+4xstride. wanted 8-10M of Alt. Miles with a 40s "hard" to "easy" spread. Splits: 4:59-5:41-5:25-5:04-6:00-5:31-5:14.

This was REALLLY shitty. Workout is supposed to be ~Tempo pace for the "hard" efforts and about marathon pace for the "mediums" with the "easy" being...steadyish. It was 80 degrees with a 70 degree dew point when I got back to the car to change shoes to cool down...gotta start getting out and warming up before 7:45am! Was feeling rough, and by the time I got home all I could do was slam some breakfast and pass out for 4.5 hrs. Ughhh.

This wasn't the week I wanted, but it was the week I needed (haha...Batman). It was the first week that we had temps hit 90+ daily and the first week it got humid out again, AND the first week I started working out in the AM since last fall - not a good coming together of things for me. I'm displeased with both workouts (both quality and volume) and can really only draw from it that at least I didn't get injured and it can only go up from here.

(PS: it has. Killed a session last night [cheating by going in the PM, I know...] and felt much better this AM. Hoping that I can have good week this week and be close to adjusted to the new temps and routine.

Very fair points Feather. No berating here though - just commentary. Interesting point about the mental freshness - the 5 weeks between the marathons kind of served as that, so I really am itching to get back to it. Yes, I very much had an aggressive goal at Pocono, but it was such a crap-shoot that I was very relaxed about it mentally.

I think it will be September before any real goal races. In between I plan to work on things while enjoying running. With that in mind the longest fall goal will probably be a half or shorter.

FEATHER

where do you live

Florida. Varying parts depending on the time of year. Where I'm at now is just...just...a bad place over the summer. Higher highs than back where Pablo is at, and a tendency to get (and stay) "thicker" due to a lack of breezes.

Trying to get out...applied for jobs in the research triangle in NC, out in Colorado Springs, and Oceania.

Why is doing a speed session in the afternoon cheating? I'm flabbergasted at people in this thread who do intervals and other hard stuff in the morning. Flabbergasted! My legs always feel like used kleenex when I roll out of bed, and maintain that impression for the first two or three miles. No problem for easy miles, but not something I want to deal with in a workout.

Also, Race Director Update: the race director emailed me this morning – very polite and apologetic. He seems like a nice guy. They're also sending me $50 in gift certificates to a local pizza place, which is pretty nice. I feel like I may have come out ahead of the game, on balance. Sure glad I didn't drop any expletives on the dude right after the race. You catch more pizza with honey than with vinegar, apparently.

easy weeks- i dont really have a structure...yet, and don't plan on one really. Just building mileage with some speed intertwined. so my workouts are more to the building side than the performance side, if you know what i mean. But ill play it safe, dude.

Numbersguy- Thank you! It was pretty hot out that day as well so i surprised myself with the results.

VF Runner- Thanks!

Goals:

June 2- Covered Bridges Half

October 13- Green Mountain Marathon

Not a very exciting week

M- 0- legs were sore after hard week last week

T- 1- Cut short the run with a sore left patella, both legs achy

W- off

Th- 3 things felt okay

F- 5- getting better

Sat- 6- (34F at time of run) got stronger throughout the run, started snowing about an hour after I finished. I did the run with the winter tights, 2 long sleeve tech shirts, gloves and ski cap on.

Sun- 0- Busy family day

Total- 15

I had hoped for 2 or 3 good days this week before tapering this week but decided to play it conservatively due to the soreness in my legs and knee. My race next weekend looks to be in muggy weather as next weekend is forecast to be about 45-50 degrees warmer than Saturday day was. Ahh the joys of New England in Spring.

Does anyone have recommendation for good HM taper workouts? I was planning on easy 3 to 5 miles runs followed by strides and/ or race pace intervals.

Bonham wrote:

Why is doing a speed session in the afternoon cheating? I'm flabbergasted at people in this thread who do intervals and other hard stuff in the morning. Flabbergasted! My legs always feel like used kleenex when I roll out of bed, and maintain that impression for the first two or three miles. No problem for easy miles, but not something I want to deal with in a workout.

Yep, I feel like dog shit every single time I start going in the mornings again. I would usually just keep going in the evenings, but that means starting and finishing later. I'm not much into getting home to eat dinner at 10pm, so it kind of just has to be done this time of year.

...Well, actually, I would usually still do it in the PM over the summer and just start at 6:30-7pm and be home by 8:30 instead of getting going then. Buuut now that I'm in a situation where my main races will be going down before 10am I figure it's probably a good idea for me (a VERY non-morning person) to get used to going hard then. It sucks, but within 3 weeks I generally adapt (kinda). I'll still have better sessions in the PM no matter what, even adapted, but at least I will be able to muster better efforts/paces by the time race days roll around (I hope).

VF: I will for sure focus more on recovery than usual. I took a nice long ice bath, hot shower and massage the day after the long effort yesterday. Was tight but not horrible this morning. Massage really loosened things up.

Feather: Any symptoms of Chronic Fatigue/Adrenal Fatigue that I should be watching out for just in case? There is no other workout in the week to sacrifice for. Just easy/recovery days between right now. Its new so we will see how it all goes. Definitely an interesting and crazy plan by the coach haha

Is peachtree a 10k? I cant imagine trying to hit times with your guys heat and humidity. I am also a morning workout guy. I would rather get it over with and have an extra easy/recovery run between my next workout.

bartowski: ouch snow, I am over that haha. If the half is on sunday I would prob do a 6-8mi run with 2-3mi at or near HMP in the middle. Maybe do that wed or thurs. But there are plenty of others you could do.

NP: as strange as it sounds libido drop is usually the vest indicator seems to be a precipitous drop in libido. That and wanting to sleep 15+hrs per day. You should be straight though. It seems you've got plenty of recovery built in and have worked to handle it/increasing the GMP sections accordingly. I'm really pumped to see you go through this training cycle, actually. Super interesting take on training.. seems similar ish to what Moore used to do back in the day.

Wow, that didn't come out at all like I wanted.... was writing it in instalments as I got yogurt. Sorry for it sounding like nonsense.

And yeah, Peachtree is a 10k. Gonna be rough trying to get longer reps in at 69/70 sec pace for specific work. I'm not gonna do too many, though. Mainly just 1 or 2 longer key sessions and some easier 600m-800m reps at goal pace.

np – I’m always very impressed by your longer workouts man. Those are some solid efforts to say the least.

StevenJ – I appreciate the advice on the tracks. Do you just use the HS track in town, or do you venture to other HS tracks too? Beer mile stuff: I agree with your assessment of running tempo pace. You should easily be able to get under threshold + 2:00 (30 per beer) providing you can drink well. I’m not a legal person, but you're probably right. It’s probably not trespassing for you since you’re a student there. However, it would be both for me since I’m neither. At the end of the day though, I’m sure you could out run the security back to your dorm worst case scenario.

SteveInAlaska – “630 minutes of cross-training.” Daaamn dude! Not sure what I could run in the 1.5-5k range right now. I think I still need some more VO2 max work before I could run something near my PR in either events, but I appreciate your confidence!

Alan Bennet – Cool dude. Thanks for the heads up on the 800s!

john berryman – Coming along very nicely, friend.

xenonscreams – Solid long run on Sunday! As far as your question on recovery: I usually experience the most DOS 24 hours after a hard effort, but I’m still flat for at least 2 to 3 days after. Sometimes my quality days only have one day of recovery between them because I like to do the faster stuff in the beginning of the week and the slower longer tempo stuff later on flat legs. I feel that it helps keep my threshold efforts more honest when I run them with no “pop” in my legs. Other times, the little recovery between hard days is just due to life throwing me a curve ball... between work/weather/social commitments; that's just the way my schedule ends up. As for your mile this week, good luck. My best advice for anyone running the mile for the first time is PUSH the inside laps!