Johnny Gray Style 800m Training (400/800 specialists)

codger wrote:

Perhaps YOU PEOPLE can explain to me why the 400 "types" go out in 50 seconds flat the first lap then fade down the finishing straight. If they have such blazing speed why don't they run negative splits?????

The trouble with these 400 "types" is they are not trained or conditioned to change speed within a race. Even Coe did this in 1977 & 1978 (think 1978 Euro champs).

These "speedsters" just can't accelerate.....they can only run one pace - all out - until they fade.

You know I am right on this one.

I think you're trolling and know you're wrong. 400/800 meter runners tend to fade at the 800m distance even if they go out slower -- their physiology is not conducive (the type of endurance they have) to running negative splits. Strong, distance type 800 runners are the ones who are best suited to sitting on the back and running even/more negative splits.

This is one of the reasons, at least I think, that the 800m is so fun to watch. Two distinct types of athletes that excel in the same event make for some exciting racing.

(That said, a guy like Jock probably does go out too fast for his ability level. 49/55 is a big positive split.)

But no, you're wrong. A sprinter is not going to hang back on an already difficult pace and muscle past a middle distance runner on the homestretch. That just makes zero physiological sense, assuming said mid d guy ran with some tactical acumen.

I think people can back me up on this?

For others who are interested:

1. Steve Magness's take/explanation on some of Igloi's methods and how to apply them in a current training context

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.html

2. Juantorena's Training, also posted by Magness on Twitter

http://www.athleticsinuganda.com/documents/Juantorena%20-%20Specific%20Training%20for%20the%20400%20-%20800m%20Runner.pdf

Typos aside (and no matter how you feel about him as a coach or athlete), Magness does do a great job of providing information and analysis for people without expecting much in return.

dan_cooley wrote:

I'm having a hard time understanding why no one seems interested in this thread. This could be a valuable addition to the training information available on LetsRun. Too busy posting about post-nuptial shutoff?

Because you can't take 1 workout and put it out there as a typical workout. It means nothing.

I got sucked in to posting a few things on the Cruz link a few years ago and here I go again! I'll limit it to just this example. I'm sure if you go down to UCLA at 7am on workout day, JG would be happy to give you more information. Not any one week is the same, so keep in mind this is just an example.

Here is an example of what a few days in May for a 45/1:43 type guy might look like.

Sat

Race

Sun

9miles easy

Mon

AM 8 miles. like this 2 miles WU, 1xmile (miles easy) 4x800 (800 easy rec) mile CD

PM 7 miles

Tue

AM

20min WU, Drills and 10x100m

6x200m with 100 jog rec all good speed

3 laps jog

8x150m with 50 jog rec 1xfresh 1xgood speed

2 laps jog

6x200m with 100 jog rec all good speed

4 laps CD

8x100m strides

PM

Mile WU

3 miles straights and bends

Mile WD

Wed

AM

20min WU, Drills and 10x100m

2x400m with 200m (easy) jog 52, 52

3 laps jog

6x150m with 50m jog rec all fresh

1 lap jog

2x400m with 200m (easy) jog 52, 51

3 laps jog

6x150m with 50m jog rec all fresh

1 lap jog

2x400m with 200m (easy) jog 51, 50

4 laps jog

1x150m good speed build up 16-17

3 laps CD

PM

2 miles WU

3x800 Good Speed, Fresh, Good Speed (800 jog btw)

1 mile CD

Thu

7 miles plus 10x100 2 Easy 1 Good

Fri

6miles

Sat

2 miles WU 

1 mile fresh 4:44, 1 mile easy 

4x800m with 800m easy jog in between, all at 2:18-2:20 pace

All run on the road in flats. 

Followed by drills on the track for an hour

codger:

Here are some 400/800 guys finishing strong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0erXx8qhFo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDkx4LkhDE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gik85qKTyh8

dan_cooley wrote:

For others who are interested:

1. Steve Magness's take/explanation on some of Igloi's methods and how to apply them in a current training context

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.html

2. Juantorena's Training, also posted by Magness on Twitter

http://www.athleticsinuganda.com/documents/Juantorena%20-%20Specific%20Training%20for%20the%20400%20-%20800m%20Runner.pdf

I like how you not only discounted Coach D's advice, but then REPOSTED the link HE SHARED WITH YOU on Juantorena's training as if you'd found it yourself. Did you even read his post?

codger wrote:

These "speedsters" just can't accelerate.....they can only run one pace - all out - until they fade.

Yes, and?

Would you rather "fade" to a 1:40.9 like Rudisha, or pull some clever tactical accelerations to a 1:42.9 like Symmonds in the same race?

And man, what's with all these "speed-based" 400m runners? They show know tactical acumen! Just sprint and fade!

How many people are really 400/800m specialists? None at elite level. Even supposed 400/800m 'types' actually concentrate on the 800m.

Better to focus on one or the other

Its also interesting that a 400m/800m 'type' and hence lacking endurance does less miles. Surely someone lacking endurance needs to do more!

dan_cooley wrote:

For others who are interested:

1. Steve Magness's take/explanation on some of Igloi's methods and how to apply them in a current training context

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/02/interval-training-why-its-misunderstood.html

Great thread! Thanks for the link. That really makes sense. Any other links that go into more detail on the Igloi method would be appreciated.

great training tips video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xdxqlPSnx8

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

I like how you not only discounted Coach D's advice, but then REPOSTED the link HE SHARED WITH YOU on Juantorena's training as if you'd found it yourself. Did you even read his post?

I didn't have a chance to read all the links posted in this thread, so that was simply my mistake. But where did I discount his advice?

Coach D's advice was interesting and I asked him a couple times for further explanation, which he helpfully gave. I read all of his actual posts in detail but simply hadn't gotten to all the links. My mistake.

Sorry you're so offended that I accidentally reposted the same link.

There is a 15 page thread started by dc449 on June 5, 2004 on Letsrun. I learned a lot from that thread. Bob Schul and others who trained with Coach Mihaly Igloi in both the US and Greece have posted on that thread.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Its also interesting that a 400m/800m 'type' and hence lacking endurance does less miles. Surely someone lacking endurance needs to do more!

Common mistake alot of western coaches make, of course develop aerobic fitness in the winter, but it's crucial to focus on the athlete's natural strengths.

Seb Coe's training was the best though- mid 46 speed, 1:41 mid speed, 3:29 1500 speed, as well as winning some titles in the longer XC races. That is a pretty remarkable range- his 400m would indicate him on the edge of a speed based athlete- but his endurance was insane. I think for training an 800m athlete we should look to Peter Coe.

coach d wrote:

But what is really different for true 400/800 athletes is where the endurance comes from. For these people, the endurance comes from special endurance, NOT mileage/endurance/jogging or whatever you call it (I would not call this "strength"). True 400/800 athletes are SPRINTERS, not distance runners that are fairly fast for distance runners, and they train like LONG SPRINTERS. As such, they have more in common with what Clyde Hart does than what Canova or Wetmore do.

This is the correct answer

I coach at a small public high school in the farmlands of central ca. I was having a hard time getting kids who were suited to the 800 to actually run it (they were all convinced they were 1-2-4 guys). So I created a separate training group called LONG SPRINTERS. I said, OK guys, you will be running mostly the 2 and 4 and occasionally the 8. Then, I threw training at them that was geared for 4-8, with the possibility of stepping up to 1600. After a couple of weeks in the early season of getting smoked in the 200, I would say something like, hey, why don't you try the 800. The kid would then step up to the 800, get in a slow heat (because he didn't have a time) then kick butt in his heat and remark how easy the race felt.

The result, after years of not really having 800 meter runners that were competitive, we had 4 of the top 7 in our league, with my top boy advancing to the masters meet of our section as a sophomore. We were also able to run the fastest 4x400 relay in my 14 years at the school. All but one of the relay kids came from the LONG SPRINT group.

Standard early season workouts for us look like

5 x 250 @ slightly faster than 800 goal pace

or

4-5 x 150 @ 400 goal pace

or

4 x 5 x 100 @ current 800 pace (30 sec between reps, 1 lap jog between sets)

Strength or over distance work was stuff like

4-5 x 800 tempo interval with 1 min recovery

or

6 x 100 @ 800 pace (jog back recovery) + 2-3 mile tempo + 6 x 100 @ 800 pace

or

Whistle workout with intervals of 1-3 minutes of hard running interspersed with 1-2 minutes of easy running.

The stuff above is only the main body of the workout. We would also do mechanics drills almost daily, bounding once per week. stadium ramps 1-2 times per week, lift 4 times per week. Occasionally, we would do "fun" stuff like pit jump sprints or wall smashers (sprints in the gym into the high jump pits, which were up against the wall.)

Once or maybe twice per week, the kids would have an easy 30 minute run.

When you have athletes doing so much quality, things like rest between reps, variety of stimulus, and a relatively low overall volume. Our general schedule for the early part of the season included "quality" at least 4 times per week

The endurance stuff was all done at a fast enough pace where the athletes could still run with mechanics that were closer to race pace mechanics than those that would happen on an easy, slow run.

CoachB wrote:

This is the correct answer

I coach at a small public high school in the farmlands of central ca. I was having a hard time getting kids who were suited to the 800 to actually run it (they were all convinced they were 1-2-4 guys). So I created a separate training group called LONG SPRINTERS. I said, OK guys, you will be running mostly the 2 and 4 and occasionally the 8. Then, I threw training at them that was geared for 4-8, with the possibility of stepping up to 1600. After a couple of weeks in the early season of getting smoked in the 200, I would say something like, hey, why don't you try the 800. The kid would then step up to the 800, get in a slow heat (because he didn't have a time) then kick butt in his heat and remark how easy the race felt.

This is good coaching.

Thanks

The kids are onto my little ruse now. Once again, the new frosh coming up are avoiding this group like the plague.

Johnny Gray also coaches Vessey, a 400/800 runner. She has traditionally run from the back and kicked hard the last 150. Oversea I noticed she stayed closer to the pack in the middle and held her ground then kicking. Didn't always work but she was "in" those race, good to see! Too bad she's not racing the 600.Alysia loves to front run, she's gotten great results from the tactic but racers are getting smarter and stronger and may be ready for her. It will be a fun race for sure!

real old guy wrote:

Johnny Gray also coaches Vessey, a 400/800 runner.

When did she leave Rose Monday? Vessey is proving to be another athlete who can't stay put with a coach.