Adam Goucher slams Salazar

I was the man back in the nineties, in my prime. I knew fast white people too. Really fast people, who worked their butts off. It's impossible that Kenyans run as fast as they do, unless they are on something or are evolutionarily superior. Is evolutionarily a real word? I am so full of myself, it must be. There was no slump, its all a lie. You don't know how fast I was in the nineties. There was no slump, because I was the man, and also knew other people who were the man. I was so fast, there was no need for anyone like Adam Goucher to bring it to the next level. There was no next level, unless you means PED's!

High Wire wrote:

Goucher being intimately familiar with Salazar's coaching for years is one of the reasons I am reasonably convinced that Alberto doesn't do anything illegal. Goucher is not the kind of guy to sit back and bite his tongue if there is hanky panky.

I'm going to take this one to heart and hope it is true. Sounds true.

t the kind of guy to sit back and bite his tongue if there is hanky panky.[/quote]

Money talks (if there is enough of it)

Suckers walk....

(((If they are faster, then all of those high schoolers must be doping.[/quote])))

I attribute the greater amount of high schoolers running under 9:00 to

1) demographics, bigger country now than 30 years ago,

2) Better coaching as more former runners stay in the sport

3) The main reason: better, more knowledgeable coaches...with the writings of coaches like Jack Daniels coaches now have a more scientific basis for how they train their athletes...in the old days, I was there for them, you had good coaches but they often "flew by the seat of their pants."

All that being said: I still firmly believe that on the elite international level that the main reason for the incredible improvements are due to PEDS. No Salazar, no one else has come up with a better system than Daniels or Lydiard....they do use those coaches methods and then enhance it all with epo, etc....the truth is a bitter pill for some people to swallow.

not sure if someone has pointed this out before, but the internet has done a lot.

When I was in HS in the mid 80s I knew who the fast guys were in my section - no more than 100 miles from my house. Now HS guys know who the fast people are anywhere in the country. It becomes clear that, say, running a 4:20 mile is not an incredible, barely conceivable feat. Here, look - there are boys doing that everywhere - why not me?

And training tech - There have always been books, but now in a week you can find out what a pro training regime is and you can understand that your 40 mpw is nothing special.

//,ql; wrote:

The Kenyans are horrible at every sport except distance running BUT IN YOUR OPINION, this makes them better athletes than whites?????? Take a look at: soccer,swimming, golf, tennis, baseball, football, basketball, hockey, cycling, ALL the other Summer Olympic sports.......no Kenyans!!!....black athletes from America yes, but Kenyans as athletes suck (except for distance running)....and don't give me that "small" country B.S. Kenya has 43 million people -- the size of a typical Euro country but where's the results?

The person to whom you are responding didn't say that Kenyans are better athletes. If I read correctly, his assertion was that Kenyans routinely dominate distance running irrespective of event. This may or may not be true, depending on one's criteria, and I am not interested in debating it.

I am, however, interested in the argument you marshal for proving the athletic ineptitude of Kenyans: namely, that they don't perform well in any other Olympic sports. This is not evidence of anything. First, Kenya may be a sizable country, but it is desperately poor. European countries, the US, the Soviet Union in its heyday, China, i.e., those that perform the best at the Olympics, don't do so simply in virtue of large populations (though a larger talent pool surely is helpful). They do so because they devote enormous amounts of resources relative to other countries to the development of athletic talent. Plus, several of the sports you mentioned, aside from not really (to my mind) being evidence of pure athletic talent (golf), are hugely expensive to participate in, particularly at a high level (cycling, golf). And You don't SERIOUSLY mean to hold up a deficit of hockey talent in Kenya as evidence of substandard athletic ability, do you?

Distance running is cheap, simple and it is deeply embedded in the national culture of Kenya. Presumably access to other sports is not nearly as easy as it is in the US, and Kenyan men and women don't see other sports as a possible road out of poverty.

agip wrote:

not sure if someone has pointed this out before, but the internet has done a lot.

Yeah, in the mid 1970's (when there were just as many sub 4:10 and sub 9:00 guys as currently), we used to check in daily to see the results from around the country and worldwide, also to debate training methods, etc.. Too bad for those '80's and '90's kids that the interwebs were shut down during their time period, not to arise again in the late '90's.

It's the mileage, folks. Not necessarily big mileage, but at least adequate mileage. For the top HS guys, 60 to 80 mpw instead of the 35 to 45 promulgated by Coe and Horwill.

Lewd dude, you are correct in stating that running is important to the Kenyan athlete.

So is cheating via PEDS....are you in denial? What is your problem?

Lewd dude, you are correct in stating that running is important to the Kenyan athlete.

So is cheating via PEDS....are you in denial? What is your problem?

Saladbar Adam Goucher, Lettuce run!

Meb is moving to San Diego too. It looks like the Mammouth Track Club is disbanding.

San Diego is going to be the new epicenter

lewd dude wrote:

Kenya... is desperately poor.

Plenty of barefoot runners in Kenya, but not by choice.

It really sounds to me like Gouch went to Oregon Project, took PEDs, but still couldn't pull it together and reach his goals. He wishes he hadn't sacrificed his integrity for no return.

The reason Goucher is cool & discussed so much is because of "To Run with the Buaffaloes". He was badass in that book. The same way the Pre was badass, but never won anything after college (Pre had less tries). If someone was to write a book following German or any other elite young runner, its going to make the readers invested in the rest of the year career.

//,ql; wrote:

Lewd dude, you are correct in stating that running is important to the Kenyan athlete.

So is cheating via PEDS....are you in denial? What is your problem?

Denial, no. Disbelief, I would say, that you think Kenyan people are transparently less athletic than their American counterparts on the basis of subpar performances in hockey, golf, football (as if anyone outside of the United States cares about it), baseball, et al. I don't know what PEDs have to do with this particular point. I am simply taking your original comment at face value, and evaluating it on its merits, which, to be frank, are hard to discern.

Under performance in tennis and cycling you also cited as evidence that Kenyans must be doped. I mean, come on. Let's get real. The majority of the sports you named are either predominantly popular in the in US/Europe, or are otherwise socially elite sports requiring not insignificant amounts of money to participate in. Let's just add Kenyan incompetence at downhill skiing to the list. I think that's the nail in the coffin for anyone wanting to argue that East Africans are clean. They just aren't on the downhill skiing radar.

Look, Kenyans may be dirty than the bathroom floor in a highway gas station, but your argument does nothing to make that case.

You are speaking from your frame of reference, but you don't have integrity unlike Adam. Taking PEDs is something you would do without hesitation if you had Adam's talent and fortitude and were in his position at the Oregon Project, however Adam would not make the same corrupt choices as you would. Just because you are a corrupt douchebag in real life does not mean that's how people who are superior to you in every way would conduct themselves.

suspicious wrote:

It really sounds to me like Gouch went to Oregon Project, took PEDs, but still couldn't pull it together and reach his goals. He wishes he hadn't sacrificed his integrity for no return.

The reason guys are running crazy times is because they are on something. Goucher does realize this and I do think he was clean. He is probably frustrated at the cheating but won't rat anyone out. So if he sounds bitter that would be why.

If "no Kenyan" could ever afford drugs, how did the ones that tested positive afford them?

Are they that much worse off financially than Moroccans or Algerians (who have had MANY high-profile positives -- and obviously pay for it somehow)?

Was Deeja Youngquist somehow making more than Africans running 8:05 / 13:00 / 27:10 or faster on the European track circuit during that era?