My experience and observation is that men, 100X more than women, seek out self-improvement, and this has resulted in a large portion of men having their life and mind together to a degree far surpassing even the top 10% of women out there. It has also been my experience and observation that women's standards are ludicrously out of touch in that they want a man and think they deserve a man who is substantially better than them in every category across the board. The combination of these two things has resulted in the bulk of women being not really much of an asset at all to the life of the top 40-50% of men, and if you're a guy in the top 5%, you're basically never going to meet a woman who is your equal, let alone meet one you are compatible with and have chemistry with. People are single nowadays because you have a bunch of women who are essentially 5s and 6s when looked at holistically who think they deserve a man who is a 9 or 10. The male 10s don't view these women as long term partners, but the women don't view men who are on their level as long term partners either. Everyone is disappointed and unhappy with the opposite sex.
Depends what you mean by "self-improvement". If you mean running a slightly faster Turkey Trot, that doesn't really equate to earning a college degree and running a successful business or being a successful lawyer or dentist.
My take on it is slightly different. I see men who make these kinds of comments as dating hairdressers or welfare recipients, or similar. Meantimes, all the hot college chicks are working as lawyers and dentists and MDs and still have a career to go back to once they're done having kids. Guys like you aren't marrying these kind of women.
Also, men over-estimate both their own attractiveness and how attracted women are to them. There used to be a guy in my training group who thought every woman was attracted to them because they attended the training group. Oh how we laughed when we saw his Tinder Bio, where he purposively described himself as attractive (nope) and how he was tired of meeting women who couldn't make up their minds and weren't honest about their feelings.
It sounds like a class issue, not a woman/man issue more.
A lot of the women you are talking about who went to college probably came from money (private colleges) and were smart and ambitious to begin with, so they landed STEM careers and their ability to network better than men and lesser women opened doors.
It really comes down to how well you sell yourself.
A lot of guys making the comments may or may not date welfare recipients--a lot of welfare recipients' social circles wouldn't intersect with guys on LRC--a lot of, if not all, LRC guys have education myself and the welfare peeps might not have more than a HS degree. Hairdressers, maybe? But a lot of them do well too and aren't poor.
In my experience with running groups, both the guys (studs, incels and everyone in between) and women (hot girls, not as hot girls and those in between) are always educated and have good jobs. Most of the dudes are STEM or business, and the females are medical, financial, HR, communications and STEM. I never met anyone in the running circles who didn't have at least a BA or BS degree.
This post was edited 27 seconds after it was posted.
If you need a good podcast to listen to on a long run, here is one with Ezra Klein interviewing Richard Reeves about why men are falling so far behind. Reeves is not a "men's rights advocate" like Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate but he is aligned with the belief that millions of American men are being told they are unneeded, unwanted, and under-skilled. He is looking for answers, not pointing fingers...
There's also plenty of women now in the 17-19 min. 5k bracket anyways. Lots of local- and regional-level women in Central Ohio (Greater Columbus and surrounding areas) with times like 17-19 in the 5k, sub-41 in the 10k, sub-1:35 (some as fast as 1:23) in the 13.1 and sub-3:20 (some as fast as 2:38) in the 26.2. And most are college-educated, have great jobs and great, balanced lives. Some are on local racing teams and/or clubs.
So for a decently fast guy, there's a lot of women in Ohio to choose from who like running and are good at it.
Are you so sure?
This really sounds like a total runner dork fantasy, but maybe I'm wrong.
I bet a woman who is a decent runner would like a running mate with a respectable time, whatever it is, even slower than hers.
What I do believe would be more important to her is that they are fun to be with, upbeat, and fairly appealing physique, even if a little bit of upper body definition might be costing them a few seconds per mile.
I get your post--in my interactions with a lot of them, they are down to earth and friendly, very fast and take running seriously but also have more hobbies outside of running like art, music, etc.
Some of them aren't aware of their talent, however; or they think they are slow but they aren't slow at all ("I only ran a 3:05 and cramped up at the end!"). When in fact a 3:05 is faster than nearly all men and women in the general population.
This really sounds like a total runner dork fantasy, but maybe I'm wrong.
I bet a woman who is a decent runner would like a running mate with a respectable time, whatever it is, even slower than hers.
What I do believe would be more important to her is that they are fun to be with, upbeat, and fairly appealing physique, even if a little bit of upper body definition might be costing them a few seconds per mile.
I get your post--in my interactions with a lot of them, they are down to earth and friendly, very fast and take running seriously but also have more hobbies outside of running like art, music, etc.
Some of them aren't aware of their talent, however; or they think they are slow but they aren't slow at all ("I only ran a 3:05 and cramped up at the end!"). When in fact a 3:05 is faster than nearly all men and women in the general population.
Ok, see where you were going with this, and couldn't agree more.
The thing is, running isn't like a high return to effort necessary (a fair amount of work is required for achievements few in society understand or appreciate). I tend to have a lot of respect for women who put in the work.
Hats off to them, they deserve the best. And I hope they get it.
Let me phasuze, my post is not an attack on all women. I'm just noticing these rapid shifts are causing changes. Women have made progress and still want to go up, and marry up or with someone on their level.
Guys realize he can only get status by competing with other men, nit women. He risks losing status by losing to women, so he's competing less.
My experience and observation is that men, 100X more than women, seek out self-improvement, and this has resulted in a large portion of men having their life and mind together to a degree far surpassing even the top 10% of women out there. It has also been my experience and observation that women's standards are ludicrously out of touch in that they want a man and think they deserve a man who is substantially better than them in every category across the board. The combination of these two things has resulted in the bulk of women being not really much of an asset at all to the life of the top 40-50% of men, and if you're a guy in the top 5%, you're basically never going to meet a woman who is your equal, let alone meet one you are compatible with and have chemistry with. People are single nowadays because you have a bunch of women who are essentially 5s and 6s when looked at holistically who think they deserve a man who is a 9 or 10. The male 10s don't view these women as long term partners, but the women don't view men who are on their level as long term partners either. Everyone is disappointed and unhappy with the opposite sex.
Its also really convenient that incels/MRAs/micro-critical men tag themselves like this by writing in a very coached way about some esoteric concept that no-one except their idols can reach, because its never properly defined. Note the excessive use of adjectives (those telling lies always try extra hard to convince), the generalisations, the bitter experience of a failed marriage to a hairdresser or passport bro marriage creeping through and the lack of personal insight. Theres no concept of how relationships work. Instead, theres a focus around the never defined "self improvement" that the writer claims men mainly carry out.
Of course, most women can easily swerve these types of men, but since everything is the fault of women in their eyes, they never realise this is the reason most women avoid them, and so the cycle continues. Theres quite a lot of humerous content on TikTok now where women post some of the messages ("missives" in MRA speech) they have received from men like this, and how annoyed they get when women won't play along with the script.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
This really seems to be a class issue. I don’t know any lads I went to university / business school with who have difficulty dating. Nor do I know many women who fit the red pill ‘hook up culture’, Twitter feminist stereotype.
The current men’s self improvement / guru culture content almost seems to be a crash course in undoing the damage of a youth spent sat on a games console, doing very little school work, and shunning discomfort.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
sorry, men are better than women in everything. just check the world records in all sports. or nobel prices as another example.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
This really seems to be a class issue. I don’t know any lads I went to university / business school with who have difficulty dating. Nor do I know many women who fit the red pill ‘hook up culture’, Twitter feminist stereotype.
The current men’s self improvement / guru culture content almost seems to be a crash course in undoing the damage of a youth spent sat on a games console, doing very little school work, and shunning discomfort.
hm sitting on games consoles is just the old sitting in front of the tv. as you get older you have more responsibilities and less free time to do that. I dont think that has been in different at any point of time.
1) This thread is 10 years old! This suggests that men have been giving up on Women for 10 years (and not doing a good job at it), have already given up on women, or they never started! There are other possibilities but this summarizes the simplest models
2) Jamin &co (Jamin: I care deeply for your well-being) have been offering the same opinions for ~5-10 years.
I was a senior in HS ~10 years ago: a different time, the only time I spent online was on Letsrun. At my HS, among "weirdo guys", very similar thoughts were offered as half-jokes and half-truths. The clearest way that I can say it is that a friend of mine was a "forever-alone" kinda-guy, and made dumb jokes about Valentine's day being "singles-awareness day". Not coincidentally, this kid was always incredibly horny and got in trouble for some sexual stunts performed uh... in situ. It took a school-wide event, -- Senior Prom, -- to get him to ask anyone out. In a way, I think his way of putting himself out there was making PMS jokes to angry girls, and speaking spanish very well.
What became of said kid? He went to college (and convinced a girl he was Puerto Rican, with his Spanish!) and got a good job. Invited me to a strip club with him after we graduated college. Spends most of his time alone, still; normalled out, but probably still has similar preoccupations.
Another friend of mine, from the same ethnic background, makes jokes about writing breakup texts via ChatGPT, -- he hasn't been in a relationship as long as I've known him. He also jokes about his youtube advertisments (yes! ppo spend enough time on youtube to keep track of patterns in advertisments!) are "vape, grubhub, and dating apps": he just wants to "eat good, smoke good, and occasional git sum wimmen". A third friend wanted to go as Morpheus for halloween, and offer people "the red pill" (this is actually a genuinely funny idea). All I mean to say is The Obvious: Culture is shaped by comedy and tragedy alike. Soon we'll be in a world where AI facilitates not only 'matchmaking', but other aspects of relationships. Sadly, relationships are upwards of 50% 'maintenence' activities (i.e "how was your day", "I hope your meeting went well! :)") that retards could think to automate away.
I still don't know what it means to "give up on women". For centuries there has been a large contingent of men who do not seek women's validation. Most of these men have been normal people who have healthy relationships. Those who "give up on women" were only the ones who were possessed by them to begin with (this is not a rag on women; many men possess women as well). Those who give up on women are trying to fake it 'till they make it, -- but you can't fake the contents of your soul!
The best advice that any young man (or women) receives is "be yourself", which also entails "knowing yourself". It's refreshing to meet someone who "is their-self". Girls and guys with a modicum of social awareness can sniff out a phony. Perhaps the real issue is that many young men no longer know themself....
What has fundamentally changed in the last 10-20 years is the form of "filtering mechanisms". Any teenager on the internet will tell you that "all the good girls are in church"; the kernel of truth to this is that many religious activities are a mechanism to support relationships between young people (think: sleepaway summer camps). The same is equally true of colleges (proximity to young people, clubs, and free time). What's unfortunate is that many young people who are no longer in school, or may have spent too much time on the internet while they were in school, miss out on last century's filters; I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to guess what form these are now. People rag on online dating for good and bad reasons, but to not recognize a small liberal arts college as (nearly) the same thing is a disservice to....
To understand this, you just have to read Eugene Onegin!
This really seems to be a class issue. I don’t know any lads I went to university / business school with who have difficulty dating. Nor do I know many women who fit the red pill ‘hook up culture’, Twitter feminist stereotype.
The current men’s self improvement / guru culture content almost seems to be a crash course in undoing the damage of a youth spent sat on a games console, doing very little school work, and shunning discomfort.
hm sitting on games consoles is just the old sitting in front of the tv. as you get older you have more responsibilities and less free time to do that. I dont think that has been in different at any point of time.
Gaming is significantly more addictive, and a clear culture has formed around it of absurd levels of consumption that you don’t see to even close to the same degree in TV consumers. And, historically, you saw the same issues in those people as gamers.
My point is that a lot of young men, from 10 through to 18, are spending 15-20 hours per week night gaming rather than doing other developmentally superior activities.
You can game healthily, but I don’t think many people do.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
As he has pointed out himself in this thread, jamin is case-in-point for this. Perpetually lusting after unattainable celebs or their surrogates is the modern equivalent of a guy in his 30s hanging centerfolds on his bedroom wall in the ‘70s or ‘80s. IDK how one can spend 4 years on a campus like UW studying something lucrative and not come away with a spouse. Except by intentionally shooting oneself in the foot.
This thread is stupid. When incels fight trolls, the trolls always win.
If you are really reading this thread for self-help on how to meet girls: (1) don't turn to incels and trolls for advice, and (2) focus on something else that society values - like a career - and friends and women will follow.
Money is sometimes a great equalizer and a good self-esteem boost for men, even if money is not the be-all in life either. Having a good job also makes you feel worthy and not inadequate in social situations. Others will make more than you but if you're doing well for yourself it's not a big deal either--after I landed my new role, I don't envy the guys and girls who make 100k like I did when I made 38k.
I finally landed a great job and love it, and am paid very well, plus it dovetails with my writing ability and my college degree in journalism did not go to waste (technical writing). It's given me more confidence when talking to others and I'm not afraid to mention my job when people ask in social situations.
At my old job, I felt ashamed because it was a dead-end job with no future. They laid a bunch of us off a week after my accident (not due to performance but they said it was only a temp job (which was news to us at the time) due to COVID). Luckily I found a much better job 3 weeks after that!
My wife was very supportive of my switch to the new job--she was before and understood it was a temporary role (mortgages) until I could land a writing job!
Get with the times.
Women nowadays don't care as much about a guy's monetary worth or income. In many cases they like making more money than their boyfriend or husband. And in many cases men are okay if their other is bringing in the real money.
I know men like believing that if they make more money, they'll be able to date more attractive women. That is true only if all other things were equal. Unfortunately, it usually takes many years of prioritizing career in order to grow one's income/worth, and during those years the dating pool is shrinking at a faster rate.
Let's say that you go from making $100K/yr at age 22 to $500K/yr at age 35. Alright, you've got the $ thing taken care of, but you're much less physically attractive than when you were 22 and there really aren't any attractive, never-married women in your age group. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there are plenty of women in their 20s who would date you. Sorry, those women would rather date the 22-yr-old you. If only you had realized that your market value was highest when you were younger (and back when there was a greater number of attractive, single women in your age group).
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Women nowadays don't care as much about a guy's monetary worth or income. In many cases they like making more money than their boyfriend or husband. And in many cases men are okay if their other is bringing in the real money.
I know men like believing that if they make more money, they'll be able to date more attractive women. That is true only if all other things were equal. Unfortunately, it usually takes many years of prioritizing career in order to grow one's income/worth, and during those years the dating pool is shrinking at a faster rate.
Let's say that you go from making $100K/yr at age 22 to $500K/yr at age 35. Alright, you've got the $ thing taken care of, but you're much less physically attractive than when you were 22 and there really aren't any attractive, never-married women in your age group. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there are plenty of women in their 20s who would date you. Sorry, those women would rather date the 22-yr-old you. If only you had realized that your market value was highest when you were younger (and back when there was a greater number of attractive, single women in your age group).
Eh. As much as I can’t stand the MGTOW and red pill narratives / generalisations, this gives off similarity ‘internet only’ vibes, wrapped in a delusional comfort blanket.
Younger women are better educated, more confident, know their value, and have vastly more opportunities than marrying for fiscal security.
Men grossly overestimate their attractiveness and feel entitled to women that are way out of their league. Rather than accept reality, they start seeking external excuses and fall into incel behaviors.
Stop watching pornography. Stop hating Chads. Start working on your social skills. Begin seeking attributes other than physical beauty.
This really seems to be a class issue. I don’t know any lads I went to university / business school with who have difficulty dating. Nor do I know many women who fit the red pill ‘hook up culture’, Twitter feminist stereotype.
The current men’s self improvement / guru culture content almost seems to be a crash course in undoing the damage of a youth spent sat on a games console, doing very little school work, and shunning discomfort.
Solid points on this--video games are not bad in and of themselves but I think at a certain age it's something to grow out of too.
You are 100% right about it being a class issue too. Women really don't need men in some cases (The Atlantic had a good article on this). Women can afford to be choosy nowadays.
Money is sometimes a great equalizer and a good self-esteem boost for men, even if money is not the be-all in life either. Having a good job also makes you feel worthy and not inadequate in social situations. Others will make more than you but if you're doing well for yourself it's not a big deal either--after I landed my new role, I don't envy the guys and girls who make 100k like I did when I made 38k.
I finally landed a great job and love it, and am paid very well, plus it dovetails with my writing ability and my college degree in journalism did not go to waste (technical writing). It's given me more confidence when talking to others and I'm not afraid to mention my job when people ask in social situations.
At my old job, I felt ashamed because it was a dead-end job with no future. They laid a bunch of us off a week after my accident (not due to performance but they said it was only a temp job (which was news to us at the time) due to COVID). Luckily I found a much better job 3 weeks after that!
My wife was very supportive of my switch to the new job--she was before and understood it was a temporary role (mortgages) until I could land a writing job!
Get with the times.
Women nowadays don't care as much about a guy's monetary worth or income. In many cases they like making more money than their boyfriend or husband. And in many cases men are okay if their other is bringing in the real money.
I know men like believing that if they make more money, they'll be able to date more attractive women. That is true only if all other things were equal. Unfortunately, it usually takes many years of prioritizing career in order to grow one's income/worth, and during those years the dating pool is shrinking at a faster rate.
Let's say that you go from making $100K/yr at age 22 to $500K/yr at age 35. Alright, you've got the $ thing taken care of, but you're much less physically attractive than when you were 22 and there really aren't any attractive, never-married women in your age group. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there are plenty of women in their 20s who would date you. Sorry, those women would rather date the 22-yr-old you. If only you had realized that your market value was highest when you were younger (and back when there was a greater number of attractive, single women in your age group).
I get your post but money is a good security blanket and women value stability in most cases. As is education. Looks are also subjective--some guys look better at 35 than they did at 22. If the wife makes more than the husband it's not a big deal (IMO) as long as the differential is not too much. If the wife makes 80 and the husband makes 70 that's not a big deal but if the wife is a high-powered CEO making 200 and the husband has a good job at 120 it would be a bit awkward IMO. I think it also then gets into the issue of social circles and whatnot--if the wife is super-famous and the husband is a nobody, for instance.
But general if both genders are equal income-wise (for the most part) it's less awkward. Stay at home dads--I empathize with them, unless there's a good support network of other stay-at-home dads, etc. Otherwise you're the only SAHD and everyone else are SAHMs and cliques form as a result.