Now I see why you can't get away with not doing speedwork

More help needed because now I'm not sure about my paces.

Just to review, I run most of my miles around 7:00 pace which is what I would call moderate. I get down to 6:00-6:15 two or three times a week in the course of finishing a run.

Now if the idea is to run threshold, and threshold is between 6:00-6:30 pace ( HM to M pace as it stands for me right now) then am I wasting my time running 7:00 pace?

Of course, there would be recovery days where I go between 7:30-8:00. But the rest of the time, it seems like I'm better off running 6:00-6:30 pace. 7:00 pace is too fast for recovery and too slow for LT stimulus.

But then I'd have to cut down on the length of my runs, because anything over 8 miles at those paces would be race-like.

If you need help with paces, two convenient resources are McMillan or Daniels.

McMillan has a calculator to compute a variety of recommended training paces:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/site/calculator

To understand the paces in context, it helps to read McMillan's physiological explanations and workout descriptions, particularly the first 4 pages:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/3

You might also read the next two pages, but I never used McMillan to design my training. For that, for the self-trained runner who is not sure how to structure training in a balanced way, I prefer recommending Daniels Running Formula, rather than re-inventing the wheel. The training paces are similar, but Daniels practical training advice is more comprehensive.

Daniels Running Formula gives you lots of practical direction on how to build your training schedule. With Daniels Running Formula, you find your VDOT from a recent race performance, and then look up your training paces:

E - Easy pace

M - Marathon pace (aka your Aerobic Threshold pace)

T - Tempo pace (aka Lactate Threshold pace)

I - Aerobic Capacity pace (also VO2max or speed)

R - Anaerobic Capacity pace (sprint)

He also gives training plans, with practical advice how to tailor them to fit your exact needs.

Thank you but what I'm interested in pursuing is what this thread started out with. Not necessarily a multi-paced system, but one that focuses only on three things:

1) High mileage

2) LT pace

3) Recover runs

I know what recovery should feel like. My problem is with #2 on the list. According to the tables and my recent race performances, my LT is right around 6:05/mile

I can hold that for about 5 miles maximum in training...so I'm wondering if threshold can be lowered by doing runs in the 5-15 mile range at some other "moderate pace"...but that's such a subjective idea that I'm trying to see if I can get a more precise answer.

If we look at one week of training

4 days of recovery

1 day at 6:05 pace

2 days at XX pace for a longer distance run

I think what HRE is trying to say is that no theory can ever be more correct than an experiment.

I think to some degree, you've lost the forest for the trees and have confused yourself a little.

"LT" pace is generally defined as the pace you could hold for 60min. I think it's too fast/too stressful for the kind of training you're talking about.

If your "LT pace" is 6:05 (and you're using a relatively recent PR, not a pie-in-the-sky prediction or a goal time) then I'd suggest doing your harder runs in the style of a progression- maybe starting at 7:00 pace, working down to 6:20, with only the last mile (or even the last half mile) at 6:05 pace. The trick is to be running along totally in control, working "well" but not necessarily "hard." When you look at the average paces of Malmo's "tempo runs," oftentimes, the average pace is even slower than his marathon pace. It's because a) he'd start off easy and get going as he warmed up and b) he wasn't trying to hit half-marathon pace for a significant period of the run. I'll see if I can dig up the post where he included the distance of the run, avg pace, and subjective assessment of the effort. If I recall "very hard" was still over his marathon pace for the average.

I've never had trouble with my legs somehow magically forgetting how to run faster. Throw in some strides, if you're worried.

I think you'd be well served, if you plan on giving the "no speed work thing" another shot, with starting your runs quite slowly (7:30-8min pace) and rolling along as you warm up. Keep it at more like marathon pace instead of LT pace for the harder parts. Maybe drill the last mile of a run a couple times a week if you just can't hold back. You don't want to be straining to hit a pace, you want to be flying along at a good effort and letting that "good effort" get faster as you get fitter.

Keep in mind, too, that many of the "no speed work" guys who were successful raced quite a bit. Maybe an 8:50 two-mile isn't a great race in and of itself for Ron Clarke, whose 5k PR was more like 4:16 pace, but hey, it's two miles with no rest pretty close to 5k pace. That counts as "speed work" in my book. (That isn't a dig on Clarke at all- I think his training/racing complemented each other perfectly)

LT pace is usually 1 hour race pace.

Maybe this is more interesting for you. HRE should also be familiar with this.

Here is a block sample from Lydiard showing a recommended weekly balance of efforts over a 100 mile week:

Marathon Conditioning

Monday: 10 miles (15km) at 1/2 effort over undulating course

Tuesday: 15 miles (25km) at 1/4 effort over reasonably flat

Wednesday: 12 miles (20km) at 1/2 effort over hilly course

Thursday: 18 miles (30km) at 1/4 effort over reasonably flat

Friday: 10 miles (15km) at 3/4 effort over flat course

Saturday: 22 miles (35km) at 1/4 effort over reasonably flat

Sunday: 15 miles (25km) at 1/4 effort over any type terrain

Fractional efforts can be fuzzy, but this example illustrates how to balance training in a high mileage, pure aerobic phase, with a variety of paces:

1 hard day

2 medium days

4 easy days

The fractional efforts are not absolute paces, but relative to race pace for that distance (e.g. 1/4 10K effort might be the same as 3/4 marathon effort):

4/4 effort is race pace

3/4 effort is an easy time trial

1/2 effort is like half trying

1/4 effort is like hardly trying

Recovery is not trying at all (0 effort) (might by 7:45 pace for you)

In this schedule, the fastest thing is 10 miles at 3/4 effort. For someone with an LT pace of 6:05, this day might be more like 6:25 pace, on your hardest day. The long run might be 7:30 pace, and the rest are in between.

This.

I think progression runs are maybe the best way to go for what you are after. Especially since you seem to be getting a bit too wrapped up in specific zones for each run. Not that it's bad to plan workouts - I think every run should have it's purpose but easing into a pace and getting all the systems warmed up before hitting the faster stuff is WAY easier than starting a run saying, "today is my workout day and I'm going to do a five miler at LT pace. Ready set GO!" I think wejo mentioned a long time ago about learning how to run "fast-relaxed", i.e., progression runs. A week of 2-3 progression runs along with easy/recovery runs + strides would be a great way to keep things simple if that's what you're after. Maybe two of those progression runs are mid-long and progress very gradually/comfortably from easy pace up to MP/HMP in the last 1/3 to 1/2 of the run and the other one could be shorter with more of a hard effort in the last mile or two. The true jujitsu stuff might be to consider every day a progression run - except every day you only progress to what your body is telling you you're ready for - some days you hardly progress out of a nice easy pace while other days you progress into some 5k pace stuff in the last half mile because it feels damn good and easy.

The last few responses have really helped. I gotta give credit to LetsRun if this ends up working out. I'm still in my prime and have goals of running 15min for 5K, 31 for 10K and 1:09 for the half

Update: Ran a 10K this morning to see if my fitness had changed any since a few months ago when I ran a 17:30 5K

36:28

So pretty much an equivalent performance which tells me that my LT is around 6:10-6:30

If you are running a substantial portion of your mileage on pavement, you are deadening your legs. The vast majority of your miles should be on natural surfaces. Dirt plus hills plus track work equals better speed. A gym session or two each week will help as well.

a bit at a loss for what the question is or reason for post. Sounds like the obvious answer is "do some speedwork" in a systematic planful way.

LT is not your 60 minute race pace. It is whatever pace lactate starts to build up.

There's no point asking what pace that is because it can change. A pace that isn't at LT can be at LT 20 minutes later during the same workout.

Measure it in terms of effort, and you'll have an accurate LT for any given moment. Learn to sense when you hit LT and you won't even need a watch.

In any case, LT training is not speedwork. You'll be racing above LT, so you won't enhance your speed training at LT.

Im quite the opposite right now due to a very odd anterior tibialis injury i have been able to do starts but no curve running so its limited me to 100-110m on the track.

"Opiate for the masses" gave you a link to Hadd on page 2. It's quite worth the read. He goes into depth about the pure aerobic base building phase, and some of the physiology behind, all while detailing a case study of a 2:27 marathoner coming back into form. For example, at one point after only training at 5:40 pace or slower (not completely true), "Joe" runs a 15:00 5K. Their is quite detailed guidance about how to form your training based on HR. This might be more useful than the Lydiard example I gave above (and doesn't contradict it).

Hadd did this for 6 months (and suggested up to 2 years) but you should give it at least 6-12 weeks if you can afford the time off from hard training/racing.

Hadd also participated in a special thread with Antonio Cabral about "2 kinds of runners". Distance runners can be separated into 2 kinds of categories: an endurance type and a speed type.

The endurance type will respond well to this high mileage aerobic training. The speed type will also respond, but responds better when some interval training is included.

If you get nervous about this aerobic phase not giving enough speed, there are things you can incorporate, which are still aerobic:

- I third the suggestion above about progressive tempos. You get the chance to finish fast, but the overall volume is small enough that it doesn't require much more recovery.

- 1K reps or 1 mile reps at your LT pace, e.g 5x1K or 3x1mile

- 400m reps at 10K pace (36 min 10K means 90s) with short recovery (90s or less), e.g. 10x400m

- Hadd suggests a workout running a 10K with 200m faster and 200m slower

- If you race, this also counts, but don't do this too much without recovering

All these permit injecting a little speed, without introducing a bigger recovery requirement afterwards.

Others have suggested strides, e.g. 8-10x 50m-100m. This is mainly mechanical and shouldn't require lots of recovery.

My "new plan" though is to work on "moving up the threshold", as referenced by Opiate of the Masses on page two. I don't understand why we're insisting on race pace work and breaking up runs into intervals.

I just ran 5:57 pace for a 10K without doing any work below 6:00/mile. My threshold is between 6:00-6:30 depending on the distance. Doesn't it follow that by "moving up the threshold" I will be able to race 10K, let's say, 2 months from now at 5:45 pace?

abort plan wrote:

My "new plan" though is to work on "moving up the threshold", as referenced by Opiate of the Masses on page two. I don't understand why we're insisting on race pace work and breaking up runs into intervals.

I just ran 5:57 pace for a 10K without doing any work below 6:00/mile. My threshold is between 6:00-6:30 depending on the distance. Doesn't it follow that by "moving up the threshold" I will be able to race 10K, let's say, 2 months from now at 5:45 pace?

The toughest part about following that HADD aerobic development plan is that it is incredibly cautious in terms of building up. I did it a few years back over just 3 months and found myself struggling to just "knuckle down and do the work" as HADD says. A lot of it seems like such slow running, but after those three months I started incorporating that 200/200 for 10k workout he mentions and man did I start to feel strong. Not only endurance but stamina strong. I had a similar experience to the "Joe" runner in testing the waters with a 5k without any pace work at 5k race pace. It was exactly as he described - absolutely couldn't get going any faster but my 3rd mile was as fast as the second and I could've easily kept going at that pace. I ended up only a few seconds off of a PR I had set with some grueling track work the previous summer - all without even coming anywhere near that pace in training (besides a few of those 200/200 workouts). Pushing up that lactate threshold really is the key and working a bit of time at paces just below LT and a ton of time working at paces WAY slower than LT will eventually move it up. But yes, you should not expect results within 3-4 weeks of this type of training and yes, it can get to be a bit of a grind to not really be doing workouts. The days where you nudge the heart rate up close to LT really don't seem like much of a workout. Honestly, those three months were some of the easiest (but also most consistent) running I've ever done. I eventually got side-tracked with something else and never continued on with the development but if you're patient it really is a good way to go about things. As HADD states - if you put in 5-6 months of that type of training - most of the work will already be done and the icing can be put on the cake with some tempo runs and shorter track stuff to sharpen up. You might even be able to race well just off of the aerobic part if you keep at it long enough. Aerobic capacity is a powerful thing.

Trained for a 50k and a marathon (one week apart) and then did a 1500m track race the next week off 75-90 miles a week base. This was also after waking at 3am to set up for a triathlon, time/direct the triathlon, tear down, produce results, send results to the newspaper and event governing body. I went at 1pm and ran 3 seconds off my PR which was set on 50 miles a week and a focus on speed work..

abort plan wrote:

Update: Ran a 10K this morning to see if my fitness had changed any since a few months ago when I ran a 17:30 5K

36:28

So pretty much an equivalent performance which tells me that my LT is around 6:10-6:30

IMO, 7 minutes a mile is way too fast for your base pace.

A rough guideline is 1.5 times your current mile pace = base pace. So if your current mile time is 5:20, that indicates a pace of 8 minutes a mile.

Some runners, like Burdett and probably Levins run their base miles at their current mile pace x2. For you that would be 10 to 11 minutes a mile. Base pace is supposed to be easy.

Another way to determine your base pace is to wear a heart rate monitor, and depending on your heart rate range, keep your heart rate under 120 for the distance. Do this once or twice and you will know your base pace.

You will need to scale this back for your own fitness.

For a guy who ran 15:00 for 5000 on the track, Hadd wrote to train to run 25:00 for 8k:

"As a minimum you must develop the ability to do the following:

40 laps at 1:36/lap

(like it's peanuts and you could easily handle another 20+ laps on demand)

30 laps at 1:30/lap

(as above - should take no mental effort whatsoever)

20 laps at 1:25/lap

(if you need to, start with 1600s at this pace with a 400m dog easy untimed jog break). As you get fitter, make it 4 x 2k with a 400m jog, then 3 x 3k ...

Start building from the slow end (1:36/lap) and when you nail that pace (with the right effort), the quicker paces will come easy.

Do not look down on the slower paces. Your current inability to do them as easily as required is what is stopping you racing faster today. When you run that pace today, it takes you too much effort.

It's not a case of "can you do them" (which I expect you can even today), but can you do them at the right effort level? Keep doing them till you genuinely believe that you could go all night at 1:36/lap pace (but you don't).

When you nail the 30 laps at 1:30 (and know that if I told you to run another 10-20, you could) AND you get to 3 x 3k at 1:25/lap pace, you'll need to add in some work at 3-5k pace. But that's in the future.

Putting it together can be something like this:

Tues - 1:36/lap pace (build to 40 laps ... knowing you could run 60 if required)

Fri - 1:25/lap pace (start small and build with 400m jog breaks)

Tues - 1:30/lap pace (build to 30 laps ... knowing you could run 40-50 if required)

Fri: 1:25/lap pace (build with 400m jog breaks)

Don't be impatient, do the above and in 3 months you can be a different runner."