Now I see why you can't get away with not doing speedwork

It's very individual, of course. I do NO speedwork and I can sneak in under 3 hours (marathon). So, the no-speedwork plan allows some people (not all, of course) to still be fast.

Lydiard: You should be in touch with your maximum speed at least once every week.

Lydiard never said that.

Sounds like 90 mpw was not enough of a stimulus for a base phase for you. Maybe 100-110 would have been better. Also, do not give up on periodization until you have gone all the way to your goal race. The fact that you are struggling with sub 6 min pace may just mean that the next phase of your training will be a good stimulus. I would much rather feel rusty after base than to feel like I am going no where with constant speed work.

abort plan wrote:

Three times a week I would pick up the pace to insert quality but could only get myself up to 6:00-6:15 pace on those tempo efforts( progressive, fast finish, or steady state throughout.

What other kinds of speedwork are you thinking of doing.

J.R. wrote:

Lydiard never said that.

Read "Running with Lydiard", you idiot.

The comma goes inside the quotation marks.

sdsd wrote:

The comma goes inside the quotation marks.

Not necessarily

You left out the period on purpose. You're such a tease!

J.R. wrote:

abort plan wrote:

Three times a week I would pick up the pace to insert quality but could only get myself up to 6:00-6:15 pace on those tempo efforts( progressive, fast finish, or steady state throughout.

What other kinds of speedwork are you thinking of doing.

Prior to this experiment, years ago, I would set aside interval workouts intentionally practicing 4:50-5:30 pace. That gets you into a lot better shape. I thinking that I could just work on getting stronger and the speed would naturally follow. But instead, my pace hit a wall.

you need to do more work below 6 pace. you're gassed "aerobically" because that antiquated model of endurance performance is so flawed.

power (or lack thereof) also drives VO2.

start getting the lead out and stop fixating on mileage totals. if you could run 120 miles/week at 8 pace or 150 miles per week at 9 pace would you honestly expect it to be helpful?

running is about producing and maintaining power.

J.R. wrote:

Lydiard never said that.

Not exactly but close. He said that you should work on your speed throughout the year.

you failed too wrote:

Read "Running with Lydiard", you idiot.

Read it yourself you idiot.

HRE wrote:

J.R. wrote:

Lydiard never said that.

Not exactly but close. He said that you should work on your speed throughout the year.

Read "Run to the top."

wrong he didn't say that wrote:

HRE wrote:

Not exactly but close. He said that you should work on your speed throughout the year.

Read "Run to the top."

I have. More than once. What's your point?

I have heard a plethora of theories, but from experience:

When I do less speedwork, my top-end speed drops (HS ran 59, now 63ish for 400) I noticed that because of how much slower my top-end is, running in the neighborhood of 72-75 is much more difficult now that it was in high school. An extension* of this would say that it is also easier to run a 85-90 if your top-end speed is higher, which would explain a bit why no speedwork would negatively affect aerobics.

*this only extends to people who are training distance; it is easier for a sprinter to run a 72 than a distance runner, but after a mile it doesn't matter because they have not developed aerobic endurance.

In high school, I once managed to run a 440 in 59.8. I could not maintain a 6:00 mile pace for even a half mile.

In college the best 440 I managed was 61.4 and managed to run six miles in 32:29. A few years later I could do 32:20 for 10,000 meters and 2:35 for the marathon but my best 440 was 66.1. So my actual speed got worse and worse as I got much faster at the distances I was interested in racing.

The OP isn't exactly talking about pure speed here. He's talking about struggling with 6:00 pace, 90 seconds per 440. That's not much in the line of speed.

DDDDD wrote:

It's very individual, of course. I do NO speedwork and I can sneak in under 3 hours (marathon). So, the no-speedwork plan allows some people (not all, of course) to still be fast.

Can you tell us about somebody who ran fast without speed work?

DDDDD wrote:

It's very individual, of course. I do NO speedwork and I can sneak in under 3 hours (marathon). So, the no-speedwork plan allows some people (not all, of course) to still be fast.

That's nice, but that's the marathon. How do you fare at 5k/10k?