Has NXN gone too far?

Agree with the posts on other threads that everyone had to battle the same conditions and you need to mentally prepare for that. I guess I'm left with two concerns: apparently Nike wants the course this way and pumped additional water onto it. If so why? After two prior races, the conditions became unsafe. When I say unsafe, I mean not for the twisted ankles that occur due to sliding surfaces, but the athletes wear 5/8 spikes and there are numerous puncture wounds suffered. Most states do not allow these spikes. So what will Nike do when an athlete takes a header into the spike of runner because of poor conditions? There would be serious repercussions. As I understand it, there were athletes that ended up at nearby hospitals.

FWIW, water was not pumped into Portland Meadows. In reality, they were trying to pump water OUT of some areas (near the finish). It was VERY muddy, but there was a bit of rain in the previous 48 hours (and in the days leading up to the race) and the mild temperatures certainly didn't help matters.

Its muddy wrote:

do you think NXN has gone too far with its obsession in tearing apart the nationals course after seeing the times for this years race?

In my opinion, the only opinion that matters is that of the athletes. I understand that for team competition, there is no other national show available. But for the nation's top individual runners, they do have an option in Foot Locker. The poor condition of the course was well known - Montoya was running there for the third year in a row - and by next year, the poaaibility of running in slop should be Very well known. If the kids continue to sign up for this type of racing, I guess I can only say Caveat Emptor - most, if not all, of these athletes could have easily qualified to run in San Diego and, for whatever reason, chose not to.

As a fan, I would love to see Foot Locker continue its long tradition of letting the best individual high school runners compete head to head at the end of the season, and for Nike to be the team competition thing, even though it seems like the same basic set of schools year after year. But if the athletes continue to prefer Nike, even after this year, I guess they can deal with the outcomes.

For me personally, I don't quite understand what the allure of Nike would be for the individual - the kids are treated very very well by Foot Locker as well - but I guess there must be reasons.

Most of it is pure logic. People in the West FL region are fools if they don't try for NXN. If they miss NXN, they can have the fall-back of FL West. When you get outside of that, most people still choose Foot Locker. Look at the FL South/NXN SE overlap. The sizable majority of good runners went with FL.

rocky mountains wrote:

FWIW, water was not pumped into Portland Meadows. In reality, they were trying to pump water OUT of some areas

Did you see this? Most years, Nike does 'water' the course to make it a mud hole. This I do know from the race organizers. Point of pride for them.

Who actually organizes the race? Is it Nike people or do they get some people who do other races in the area?

Pump it up wrote:

Did you see this? Most years, Nike does 'water' the course to make it a mud hole. This I do know from the race organizers. Point of pride for them.

I think you're lying. It's December in Portland, there's plenty of rain water to do the job. Conditions of the course depend entirely on the weather.

jewbacca wrote:

I think you're lying.

Um, okay.

I think the race organizers are have some fun at your expense. Water has never been pumped into Portland Meadows for NXN.

The kids continue to choose NXN for the free gear. I don't know of one athlete who's claimed "I enjoyed that race."

freaky wrote:

The kids continue to choose NXN for the free gear. I don't know of one athlete who's claimed "I enjoyed that race."

Athletes attending FL receive a ton of free gear as well. Unreal amounts of gear in reality. FWIW, Montoya had been to both and he chose NXN this year knowing full well how muddy NXN can get.

Back in the day I ran in a number of late season cross country meets (including TAC championships) with a bit of mud (Raleigh in '85 had ridiculous mud) and I don't remember having "fun," but I also don't remember people whining so much. Unfortunately, it does seem as though we've "watered" down courses. I hear too many stories of college coaches preferring flat courses over challenging courses - what a shame.

Thank goodness you started this thread instead of posting on one of the other 20 NXN discussions!

I ran at the TAC championships that year, and that race was one of the most memorable of my life. In the previous month I had run 2 x 2 miles in 9:40 and 9:38, ran a 10k in 32:03 and ran ~17:10 for 5K on the Raleigh course. It was incredible! Pat Porter did a face plant in the mud and ran something like 30:30 for 10K, Eyestone, Bruce Bickford and Tim Hacker ran right around 31:00.Sports Illustrated:"The continuum of rutted quagmire that passed for the course at last Saturday's TAC national cross-country championships in Raleigh, N.C., would have been better suited to tug-of-war or mud wrestling. But cross-country runners always play it as it lies, and few seem to revel in the elemental challenge as much as Pat Porter and Lynn Jennings, who won the men's and women's races, respectively, going away."

FL gives out free gear as well wrote:

Back in the day I ran in a number of late season cross country meets (including TAC championships) with a bit of mud (Raleigh in '85 had ridiculous mud) and I don't remember having "fun," but I also don't remember people whining so much. Unfortunately, it does seem as though we've "watered" down courses. I hear too many stories of college coaches preferring flat courses over challenging courses - what a shame.

freaky wrote:

The kids continue to choose NXN for the free gear. I don't know of one athlete who's claimed "I enjoyed that race."

Really? I know 10 guys who have run it and they all loved it.

FL gives out free gear as well wrote:

freaky wrote:

The kids continue to choose NXN for the free gear. I don't know of one athlete who's claimed "I enjoyed that race."

Athletes attending FL receive a ton of free gear as well. Unreal amounts of gear in reality. FWIW, Montoya had been to both and he chose NXN this year knowing full well how muddy NXN can get.

FWIW, Montoya never ran FL or Foot Locker West. Athletes in the west can't run both - Nike nationals is always on the same day as FL West. Have to choose one or the other. ( A few western athletes have won NXN qualifiers and turned them down for FL, however.) Montoya qualified for NXN as a sophomore and continued to run there afterwards. But I agree - he 100% knew the NXN course is a muddy mess. Most of the others did, too. (And I haven't heard him complain about it either, even though I was hoping he'd win.)

And yes, I agree, FL national participants do receive a lot of gear. Most of the same guys also get loads of stuff at Dream Mile. I'm betting most of them have way more than they will ever need or use. FL doesn't exactly cheat its runners - the Del Coronado at holiday season is something like $500 a night, is on the beach, and is absolutely gorgeous. Would be hard not to take away some good memories from that race.

Pump it up wrote:

rocky mountains wrote:

FWIW, water was not pumped into Portland Meadows. In reality, they were trying to pump water OUT of some areas

Did you see this? Most years, Nike does 'water' the course to make it a mud hole. This I do know from the race organizers. Point of pride for them.

I don't necessarily think you're lying, but, well, I have lived in Portland, and *every* grassy field is a soggy sponge this time of year. Add hundreds of runners in spikes, and mud is an inevitable result.

Winters in Portland consist of mid 40s with light rain 4-5 days per week. Many dog parks even have a grassy "summer" version and a wood-chip "winter" area. This is hardly a surprise to any Portland natives.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought Montoya had run at FLW (and Nationals) last year, but I was wrong.

FL gives out free gear as well wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. I thought Montoya had run at FLW (and Nationals) last year, but I was wrong.

My guess, and it is 100% guess, is that Montoya, and some of the others, felt a sense of loyalty to the Nike organization since he'd run there twice before and also attended their elite summer camp. Since he didn't have the option of doing both races, I'm guessing it would have been awkward to jump ship and run 'the other meet', especially since he was such a highly ranked, visible runner. On the other hand, Cheserek opted out of Nike.

(By the way, while Montoya never ran FL, he was at Balboa a couple of years back to support one of the other AZ guys who was at nationals. So he was familiar with the FL national course.)

Pump it up wrote:

rocky mountains wrote:

FWIW, water was not pumped into Portland Meadows. In reality, they were trying to pump water OUT of some areas

Did you see this? Most years, Nike does 'water' the course to make it a mud hole. This I do know from the race organizers. Point of pride for them.

This is not true. Portland Meadows is in a flood plain (Google Vanport flood for a historical view). After the first rain of the year this place is saturated until next August. I've seen every NTN/NXN and the amount of water always reflects the amount of rain we've had in Portland at the time. And by December your only choices are going to be muddy or more muddy.

I don't think Nike dislikes the wet conditions but they don't go to the expense of pumping water onto the course. Remember they have a lot of electronics that they rely on during the meet and they wouldn't risk their function for just a tiny bit more mud. There is always plenty.

Portland Meadows isn't perfect but there just aren't any better courses in the Portland area. Most HS courses are run on school grounds or small city parks. They could run it across the river at Ft. Vancouver but that's about the only other alternative.