Nick Symmonds Tweet: Someone should remind them (Letsrun.com) it's February.

What is it that Nick doesn't get that will prevent him from being a medal threat?

Industree wrote:

After reading this quote, I now understand why Symmonds will never be a medal threat. He just doesn't get it.

No, Symmonds will probably never medal because he is somewhere around the 6th - 10th best 800m man on the planet. It has nothing to do with "not getting it".

Wejo--

I'm calling you out on your backpedaling here. You say that athletes can't win--well, your own way of "keeping things interesting" by talking about stocks rising and falling is a major part of that. Your breezy, dismissive, and histrionic style of editorializing is a major reason athletes "can't win."

You claim that "Symmonds running 1:47 in February is not a concern"--well then, why did you couch it in such terms? For those who may have forgotten, this is what you wrote:

"Who do you think has a better chance of medalling? The 22-year-old Kszczot with a 1:43.30 PR who just ran 1:44.57 indoors last week or the 28-year-old Symmonds who opened up outdoors last week himself with a 1:47.44?"

Now, you can claim all you want that this is an innocent question, that you were "just asking" or "pointing something out." But the truth is Symmonds was right to read your comments the way he read them, and that you should feel more than a bit embarrassed right about now.

Nick's right. Anyone see one of his recent workouts? 8x400 in 66 and 2x200 in 25. HE RAN 147 OFF OF THAT. I feel pretty confident in him lasting the entire season if he can run that well on minimal hard training. Remember last year at Pre? He ran like shit, then at USAs looked great. Once he starts sharpening up, he becomes alot more dangerous, but that's not what February is for.

What he doesn't get is that executing the same training plan and racing program will yield the same results - which has been sub-par internationally. Isn't there a quote that reads, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Symmonds is insane if he thinks the same old methodology will bring new results. He should have tried to enter the season in 1:45 shape as opposed to 1:47 shape so come August he will be that much more prepared instead of procrastinating. If he really ran 400s in 66, this fool has no shot.

I will re-post after the Olympic Final on this topic.

Industree wrote:

What he doesn't get is that executing the same training plan and racing program will yield the same results - which has been sub-par internationally. Isn't there a quote that reads, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Symmonds is insane if he thinks the same old methodology will bring new results. He should have tried to enter the season in 1:45 shape as opposed to 1:47 shape so come August he will be that much more prepared instead of procrastinating. If he really ran 400s in 66, this fool has no shot.

I will re-post after the Olympic Final on this topic.

Perhaps that "fool" has learned what works for him and knows this better than you or me. Perhaps that "fool" is getting the most out of the talent that he has been blessed with.

Perhaps it is foolish to call someone a fool who has been the top US 800 m runner for several years running without appearing to have extraordinary levels of natural talent.

Symmonds is crazy for taking it that personally. Sure they referenced him by name, but from the context it was obvious that medalling in the 800 got harder PERIOD. Symmonds is America's best, and this is an American site, so they referenced him by name. But with a newcomer dropping a 1.44 indoors and cracking the top 10, the 800 just got harder PERIOD.

Nick, get off this site, stop taking things so personally, and go jump some rope, add a few pounds to the bench press bar, and shave a few tenths of seconds of your 200 reps.

Industree wrote:

What he doesn't get is that executing the same training plan and racing program will yield the same results - which has been sub-par internationally. Isn't there a quote that reads, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Symmonds is insane if he thinks the same old methodology will bring new results. He should have tried to enter the season in 1:45 shape as opposed to 1:47 shape so come August he will be that much more prepared instead of procrastinating. If he really ran 400s in 66, this fool has no shot.

I will re-post after the Olympic Final on this topic.

What part of Nick's progression over the last few years indicate that his training is yielding the same results? Maybe you can point out where Nick has plateaued with his times.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

NoVan wrote:

Just becaused they say they are focusing on August doesn't mean they are not peaking early. Remember last winter when Ebuya dominated all those xc meats in December and January and then didn't qualify for world xc? Or when Cragg or Mottram beat Bekele early in the season and then got left in the dust in August? Peaking at the right time of the year is pretty important.

What about when Mottram beat Bekele at the end of the season?

Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. Mottram ever beat bekele at the beginning of the season. He only beat him once and that was in a 3k in september of 2006 from what I can recall. As far as symmonds, he's right. Towards the beginning of the season, athletes/coaches have two choices: they could have two peaks a year; one for world indoors, world xc, and of course one for outdoors. Or just outdoors. Since this is an olympic year, seems like the majority of the athletes and their coaches are doing the latter. It really doesn't matter what option you choose especially if you're following a great traing program.

joho,

This is not about times. This is about winning a race, THE RACE, on the grandest of all stages. Symmonds has proven that he can peak for the American championships and defeat all the Americans.

Here is Symmonds' plateau. He has been 5-6h in the world since 2007 and obviously did not make the final of the Beijing Olympics in 2008 -

Honours

Rank Performance Wind Place Date

800 Metres

13th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 5 f 1:45.12 Daegu 30/08/2011

IAAF/VTB Bank Continental Cup 2010 5 f 1:44.98 Split 05/09/2010

IAAF/VTB Bank World Athletics Final 6 f 1:46.19 Thessaloniki 12/09/2009

12th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 6 f 1:45.71 Berlin 23/08/2009

The XXIX Olympic Games 5 sf 1:46.96 Beijing (National Stadium) 21/08/2008

12th IAAF World Indoor Championships 6 f 1:46.48 Valencia, ESP 09/03/2008

11th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 6 sf 1:46.41 Osaka 31/08/2007

His other plateau is in his time progression, as he looks pretty stagnant over 800m and hasn't PR'd since 2010,but has been on the same level since 2008 -

800 Metres

2011 1:43.83 Monaco 22/07/2011

2010 1:43.76 Rieti 29/08/2010

2009 1:43.83 Monaco 28/07/2009

2008 1:44.10 Eugene, OR 30/06/2008

2007 1:44.54 Eugene, OR 10/06/2007

2006 1:45.83 Indianapolis, IN 25/06/2006

And don't give me this bullsh!t about "he's gotten the most out of his ability" American rationalization BS. He is America's best and one of the world's best. Mix it up, get in 1:45 shape NOW and the game will open up in August.

First of all I'm definitely not embarrassed.

There is a some nuance here. Symmonds 1:47 in February is not a concern. Maybe it was better not to mention his time. I even thought of taking it out. The contrast is that Kszczkot is a younger and faster than Symmonds and he has shown this indoor season that he looks like he is going to another level. That is what 95% of the post is about. I think one way to highlight the contrast is by pointing out what they are both doing now.

Perhaps the time should not be menionted at all or be mentioned like this:

The 22-year-old Kszczot with a 1:43.30 PR who just ran 1:44.57 indoors last week or the 28-year-old Symmonds? (who btw opened up outdoors last week himself with a 1:47.44)

That would show Symmond's time is totally secondary.

Some people are going to be interested in what Symmonds is doing now.

One subtle point is even if the 1:47 for Symmonds doesn't concern us now ie we're not worried that he won't be ready when it counts, contrasting what Kszczkot's doing now to what Symmonds is doing now, could hint at subtle differences in their max ability. This is all a very fine line. The goal is to be a top 3 800 man in the world (or a least a top 3 80 man on one day). Symmonds has shown himself to be a 5-8 top 800 guy. Moving up a couple of spots is not impossible but it is also not easy. And when a guy behind you shows he may have a higher maximum ability than you, it is worth noting.

That is what we are doing. We said nothing about Nick Symmonds ability as a runner. We don't think any less of his capability today than we did yesterday. Nick Symmonds is a great 800m guy and hopefully getting better this year but that doesn't mean he's going to medal as these other guys behind him could be moving ahead of him. Same thing with the piece on Rupp's medal chances and Wilson Kiprop:

I think most impartial observers would look at Kszckot's performance this year and say it just got harder for Symmonds to medal. Yes there is a chance Ksz is burning it too hot but the other is he is a future star.

The beauty of the sport is you still have to run the race. And the best guy doesn't always win.

Industree wrote:

...

His other plateau is in his time progression, as he looks pretty stagnant over 800m and hasn't PR'd since 2010,but has been on the same level since 2008 -

800 Metres

2011 1:43.83 Monaco 22/07/2011

2010 1:43.76 Rieti 29/08/2010

2009 1:43.83 Monaco 28/07/2009

2008 1:44.10 Eugene, OR 30/06/2008

2007 1:44.54 Eugene, OR 10/06/2007

2006 1:45.83 Indianapolis, IN 25/06/2006

And don't give me this bullsh!t about "he's gotten the most out of his ability" American rationalization BS. He is America's best and one of the world's best. Mix it up, get in 1:45 shape NOW and the game will open up in August.

From the numbers you post it would be reasonable to say that he has been on the same level since 2009, not 2008. The 0.27 drop from 2008 to 2009 is non-trivial.

But you're right about the bullsh!t rationalization. You've certainly convinced me anyway. Heck, my only question now that you've opened my eyes to the possibilities is, "Why stop at 1:45? Why not just go ahead and open up at 1:43 (or 1:41!) and REALLY mix it up?" Let's stop holding ourselves back with these American rationalizations!!!

Harun Abda and Charles Jock will have their way with Symmonds at the trials. Hopefully he can hang on for a third spot.

What's a matter stuck-don't know how to use the twitter yourself?

stuck with match.com wrote:

someone should tweet to symmonds that he is an arrogant jack@ss who stole money from that tattoo sponsor only to have it covered up

TalkingToTheMoon wrote:

The "It's still early in the season" excuse is complete crap. Coaches use it, athletes use it, and fans use it because it's just another way to justify a poor performance when others are performing better.

It's just as early in the season for everyone else and I'm sure they're focused on August as well.

There is a lot of truth to this. Another way of looking at it is that if you enter a race, fans are going to judge your performance. If you are going to be sensitive about people critiquing your performance, then maybe you should think twice before you enter the race.

And deep down we all know there are times when performances in off periods mean something. If Bekele just showed up in February and ran 15:00 minutes for 5000 on an all out effort, it means something. Likewise, it doesn't take a genius to know that Webb's 1:50's are not a good sign.

Having said that, nick running 1:47 in February is no big deal.

I think it is an interesting question and has to be asked. symmonds is a strength 800m runner. As you get older and as you become more experienced, you need to work on your weaknesses. Symmonds' weakness is speed.

He trains by the older Lydiard method of little speed early - even in the winter. Many 800m runners today, and actually many distance runners today, work on their speed earlier or all year round as it is a skill that needs to be maximized.

It is easy to always look like you peak well if you are simply slow most of the year simply saving any fast workouts for the competition period. should Symmonds be doing full out 600s - no. But maybe he should think about working on his weakness more all year around - especially as he gets older. It doesn't seem to hurt a lot of athletes like we thought it would years ago.

rowlands knows best how Nick best responds, but that shouldn't stop me and others from questioning whether changing his methods a little might be beneficial.

Symmonds needs to race. Unfortunately, people who don't understand periodization will be prone to scrutinize his earlier season times. It's dumb, but welcome to the world / Internet.

FYI, I'm sure many of you know, but Snell went from 1:52 to a 1:44.3 WR in less than 6 weeks in the early 60s under Lydiard.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=18124

Bottom Line -- People are entitled to say and scrutinize anything they want. As a public figure, Nick needs to learn to stay focused and deal with it.

52.43 wrote:

After Lievin I read a quote saying now I can go back to Poland and train. Should have done that instead of racing in Stockholm... Lewandowski btw got second place!

It's interesting cause Lewandoski does this off HIGH milage compared to Adam. What happends when Marcin cuts down on the milage and start focusing on speed, what will Adam do then? We shouldn't be critical to great indoor times, but if someone run that great on 800 in february it might not be the best preperation for the olympics, just saying.

Symmonds is hard to root for. Something about him, his attitude, his stupid division 2 or 3 school, his stiff arm running motion, his shortness... It's just everything, his whole aura sucks. He is lame.

That's why I am rooting for Robby Andrews to make a small jump and become the guy! Obviously the new hack coach at UVA isn't going to get Andrews there so hopefully he goes pro or leaves school or something.

symmonds will never win a medal. i hope he doesn't make the team and take a spot from some up-and-comer that may make a Centro type of breakthrough... someone like Robby Andrews!