you think about it wrote:
GYPSY-
YOU ARE SO HARSH ON RENATO - MOST RUNNERS DON'T LAST LONG. HERE IS MY POST FROM LYDIARD IMITATIONS. APPLY YOUR OWN HARD STANDARDS TO OTHER ATHLETES TOO
I WROTE:
ryun peaked after two years, then declined
snell ran best in '62, then maintained, then dropped out
elliott couldn't go on after 2 or 3 years
walker peaked after a couple of years then matched that time many years later, but basically stopped improving
same with coe
same with ovett
same with cram - actually cram best was 85 then a gradual decline after that, his last couple of years were disappointing
vasalla - very briefly graced the international scene
cruz - same as others
bayi - same
morcelli - superstar fell away badly in the final years
bile - two or so years at the top
bekele , geb, komen, all slowed
as renato said - elg peaked then maintained
why focus so much on renato when it is the norm.
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GYPSY WROTE:
(MY REPSONSE IN BRACKETS)
[MY COUNTER RESPONSE IN THESE BRACKETS]
I don't know about all of these, it seems they my not be your best examples.
When Snell ran his 1500pr it was 6 years after his first international.
(snell only ever ran one 1500, HE RAN HIS FASTEST IN 1962, gave up in 65 when he knew he could never match ryun)
[he crushed them in Tokyo in 64 aged 26, 7 years after beginning serious training - still clearly running well ahead of the rest of the world at his second Olympics. To say he quit in 65 because of Ryun is probably not a widely held opinion. I think the consecutive olympic champion factor and the double in Tokyo are pretty serious achievements and this might have had something to do with it. The psychological aspect is always heavily involved is it not?]
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Elliot - retired unbeaten and still improving. Certainly not close to his peak.
(elliott has said himself he retire at his peak - he couldn't face his training anymore)
[ok he said he didn't want to go on because he didn't have the desire he used to have. Psychological or something more but definitely not physical. Physically he showed no signs of decline. Perhaps is he had headed across the Tasman he might have found Lydiard's approach a little milder, like the personality.]
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Morceli - appeared 88/89, WR 95 and still 3:30 in 1999, hardly a good example
(fact is he slowed significantly - he had run 2.27)
[he ran 3:27 at 25, which is 6 years after he appeared internationally]
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Walker - appeared 74? ran 3:32.5 in 75, mile PR in 1982, 135 sub 4 min miles - regarded as having one of the greatest longevities.
(did he ever run under his 3.32 in 75?)
[no he didn't at age 23, but his mile best was at age 30 and age 31 ran 336. I don't think this can be argued as being in the same case as Renato's athletes. Althogh i would be interested to know more about not reaching a nw best in the 1500m from 23-30. Perhaps his party animal ways and love of the European circuit meant a failure to progress but to maintain so well. Perhaps he should have been doing the hill phase as well]
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Coe - consecutive Olympic champ - say no more
(maintained - didn't improve - fastest 800 in primary event in 81 - never got near it again)
[it's irrelevant if you consider he didn't do much long running and mainly trained with intervals. If you believe that then this isn't an example for the approach espoused by Lydiard, Cerutty et al. If you don't believe it then we should open his stats. It does seem consecutive olympic champion means at least 5 years of being better than anyone else in the world or at least fighting for that spot]
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Ovett - 337 in 76 and PR 330 in 83, longevity of unbeaten performance must count high as well
(only ever raced to win until coe came along, then ran for fast times, many in the know, consider him to be at his best in 78)
[i wouldn't want to presume to know better than people in the know, but if his best was 7 years after he appeared then it passes i reckon]
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Cram - 1981 ran sub 350 mile, PR mile 87, 330 in 88 over 1500
(peaked in 85 and was downhill after that)
[He was 25 when he peaked and was still at 330 3 years later at 28 having broken 4 mins for the mile at 19. 6 yars to peak and three years at the same level is pretty good isn't it?]
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Vasala - 68 OG came 41st, 4 years later gold, then retirement - i would like to know more - borderline case
(disappeared after the gold)
[I wonder what he said about it all. Retiring at your peak doesn't give any indication to longevity really.]
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Cruz - 144.3 as a junior in 81 yet silver OG in 1988 with 143.90 with PR of 141.77 in 84, borderline case i concede.
(peaked at 21 in 84)
[what sort of training he did probably answers why this happened, however olympic silver at 25 is maintaining his original event well.]
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geb - now you are joking yes? at age 19 in '92 he runs 13:36 and PR of 12:39 in '88 at 25, 10k 28.02 in '92 and PR in 1988 of 26.22 yet runs 26.29 in 2003 aged 30, moves out to marathon and pr there in 2008 aged 35. Quite a beautiful career, in contention for the best ever surely.
(peaked at 25/26 and slowed - had to move to the marathon)
[25-26 ie 7-8 years since adulthood and serious training is great. It's not 3 years.]
el g - 333 in 94 (351 in 91 at 17) to 326 in 98 and again in 2001 and 2002 and 327 in 2004, pretty exceptional
(peaked at 26 - never ran quicker)
[26 and then maintained - passes the test]
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ad one i found on the way
Marius Bakken - 1998 343, 2005 338 PR nicely, 5k 1999 13:22 to PR 13.06 in 2004.
(did he have the same coach)
[i thought he coached himself]