Imagine how much better they could be

"No formal interval training. No mile repeats. No tempo runs either."

"Hills and strides, that's all we do. It's cross-country year-around. Training does not change from summer to fall to winter. The weather changes, that's all."

"Hills for strength, strides for speed. We keep it simple."

Neal Levy

No mile repeats or tempos? Imagine how much better they could be if he applied these to his training. Samantha Nadel and 12-sub 11:30 3K girls and 4-sub 10:05 3K girls is nothing compared to what FM, Saratoga Springs and Saugus has done over the last few years.

FM is the six-time defending national champions in cross country, Saratoga Springs is one of the greatest programs in history, having won nationals in 2004 and set the 4xMile national record (Nicole Blood ran 4:41 in high school) and Saugus is the six-time defending California state champions in cross country, has set the state 4xMile record twice and has had nearly 12-sub 11:30 girls over two miles in one year.

That great work by Levy, but I think tempos and mile repeats would improve his program.

They definitely would, a combination of what they are doing now and tempos/mile repeats would be great.

when did an 11:30 3k become something to brag about???? What is that like 12:30 2-mile pace?

quick question wrote:

when did an 11:30 3k become something to brag about???? What is that like 12:30 2-mile pace?

11:30 is what you'd expect an average athletic hs girl to be able to run 3k in with some decent training.

there is probably some team synergy on the girls team which is basically the make or break critical component of a girls track / cross country program.

they all want to do better for the team because they are bffs more of a caring attitude than competitive.

I know for a fact 1st hand that NSHS has approximately 800 kids at their HS. Other than Tatnall what other school of their size (population) has had their type of success they have had this season. In addition, how do you know that tempo runs/ mile repeats would make them better. You are not considering the emotional side. Finally, the article never compared them to FM or Saratoga from a historical perspective just from this season.

quick question wrote:

when did an 11:30 3k become something to brag about???? What is that like 12:30 2-mile pace?

4 faster than 10:05 is pretty good.

Having run a 4:08 mile in high school on relatively low mileage but with really intense intervals, I would have been much better in the long run with this guy's plan. Would I have run 4:08? Maybe not. But an emphasis on base would have really helped me, as being able to do significant base work (and handle much higher mileage) is a key to success at the college level.

The hills are simply 65 minute runs where the middle 45 is on a hilly course and they go harder up the hills and ease off on the way down. This is done three days per week. Three other days per week are 65 minute runs on flatter courses. There's a good chance they're getting some tempo-like stimulus on some of these runs.

There's as much reason to believe they'd be slower doing something else as there is to believe they'd be faster.

quick question wrote:

when did an 11:30 3k become something to brag about???? What is that like 12:30 2-mile pace?

It's how many girls broke 11:30 not that it's a fast time. That school isn't very large- it's Class B in NY State.

livelikeaballer wrote:

The hills are simply 65 minute runs where the middle 45 is on a hilly course and they go harder up the hills and ease off on the way down. This is done three days per week. Three other days per week are 65 minute runs on flatter courses. There's a good chance they're getting some tempo-like stimulus on some of these runs.

I once had a group of girls who were that competitive. I would send them on an easy 6 miler and they'd run under 8:00 per mile. To them easy was when they weren't running race pace- like 6:00-6:30 per mile for 5K for the group.

One thing to consider is that he says this is for indoors- this way they don't peak and have to rebuild and peak again for outdoors.

runn wrote:

quick question wrote:

when did an 11:30 3k become something to brag about???? What is that like 12:30 2-mile pace?

It's how many girls broke 11:30 not that it's a fast time. That school isn't very large- it's Class B in NY State.

people are people, size of the school doesn't change that

They run about 7:20 pace not 6:30 pace.

There are only 800 kids in the school, only a handful of them join the cross country program. I'm sure North Shore, along with every other school in the country, could have more faster than 11:30 in the 3K if people came out. Size of the school doesn't matter!

12 under 11:30 for 3K isn't very impressive to me.

There are all 8th thru 10th grade running under 11:30.

reality sucks wrote:

There are only 800 kids in the school, only a handful of them join the cross country program. I'm sure North Shore, along with every other school in the country, could have more faster than 11:30 in the 3K if people came out. Size of the school doesn't matter!

12 under 11:30 for 3K isn't very impressive to me.

Size of the school DOES matter. If he has 4 girls under 10:05 for 3k, that converts to 4 under 10:50 for 3200, a typical year for Saugus. Saugus has 3 times as many students, so an equivalent year for them would be 12 girls under 10:50. I understand what you're saying ... "just get more girls out for your team, and you will have more faster girls", but, all else being equal (both coaches have the same recruiting abilities/restraints), Rene needs to get 12 under 10:50 to match this guys 4 under 10:50. And if anybody is reading this from Saugus, I am NOT disparaging Saugus. Rene is one of my favorite coaches, and I have great respect for the Saugus program. I am simply using them as an example, because they are a team I know well, as far as elite level programs.

If size doesn't matter, why does California have 5 state championships based upon school size? And why do the Southern Section schools always fare better? Because they are bigger high schools in D1, D2, and D3 than the schools coming from the other sections. SIGNIFICANTLY BIGGER.

quick question wrote:

runn wrote:

It's how many girls broke 11:30 not that it's a fast time. That school isn't very large- it's Class B in NY State.

people are people, size of the school doesn't change that

You're kidding, right? Let me explain- I have a school about the size of North Shore. One year we had 17 boys break 5:00 in the 1600.

Now, in theory, if my school was double our size (in track in the large school/small school set up in NY, we compete against schools double our size) we would have 34 boys break 5:00. The larger student body gives you the opportunity to have more kids to choose from.

One year I had two girls who could have broken into FM's top 7, they are a lot bigger than we are. If my school was there size I could have had 6 girls that good. Plus better runners backing them up. Then, all of my girls would have been even faster because they would have a larger group to train with. Yes, size matters.

My program had 32 boys under 10:00 for 3200 one year, and there were only 27 boys in the entire school. If we were F-M's size, we would have 3,215 boys running 9:55 or better.