Good Milers with "poor" speed

1. For Ovett, Kenny Moore (in his article on the 1979 Golden Mile) listed Ovett as having sprinted 200m in 21.7 seconds. And Wikipedia lists his best 400m time as 47.5 -- but that was in 1974, a good 3 years before he began is peak. Also, in his well known 1977 World Cup 1500m win, he ran the 100m of the last CURVE in 11.8 before coasting in with a last 200m of 25.1 (worth watching this one on You Tube). Perhaps the best measure of Ovett's speed was that his competitors respected it.

2. For Ryun, the Jim Ryun video (the hour-long documentary from T&F News some years back) states he ran a 46.9 quarter in a relay at the Kansas Relays -- meaning he had a rolling start, but he also ran this on cinders and on a day when he ran (I infer from the video) two other events, including a sub-4 mile.

3. In terms of 400m speed overall, breaking 50 seconds is not that awe-inspiring. A lot of decathletes can break 40.

Spider wrote:

3. In terms of 400m speed overall, breaking 50 seconds is not that awe-inspiring. A lot of decathletes can break 40.

A lot of decathletes can break 50 - not 40.

Yep, Oops - obviously I meant 50. Sorry. But I believe the other points are valid.

Also, for Coe he is listed (WIkipedia) as having run a 400 in 46.8 flat, but having run a relay leg in 45.5.

Ovett's 400 pb -47.5- is from 1974 and his 200m of 21.7 was run in 1975. Both were hand timed. However, from relays he competed in later in his career (peak years) the fastest he could ever manage was 46.8 in 1979. This is worth c. 47.3 for 400m flat, so it would seem his 400 speed didn't actually improve as and when his endurance did.

His 11.8 split from the 77 World Cup comes from a hand time that his coach took, which then passed into folk lore. If you look carefully at the split times for 200m to go and 100m to go, his curve 100m was actually 12.0. Still incredible.

As for Ryun's 400 relay split (440yds) I've only seen it in print as 47 flat. And it came after running 1 race earlier in the day, not 2.

He ran a mile at the Kansas Relays (1966) on Thursday (3:59.0 leg with 53.5 last lap) then a 3:55.8 mile 2 days later on the Saturday. "He ended the day with a fast 47-flat relay leg" (P.316 "The Milers" by T&FN)

Spider wrote:

Yep, Oops - obviously I meant 50. Sorry. But I believe the other points are valid.

Also, for Coe he is listed (WIkipedia) as having run a 400 in 46.8 flat, but having run a relay leg in 45.5.

Yes, but watch this 400 relay from 1981 in 45.6, from practically a standing start. And this was less than 2 hours after front running a 1:44.06

Deano will you shut up already, his 440y was 46.9, straight from Jim Ryun, and from Corder Nelson in The Jim Ryun Story. Since I know you are going to say 'well corder nelosn wrote 47 in my book!' well anyone with sense can see that he is rounding up, it makes no sense to say 46.9 if it was 47 however. In sum, it was 46.9 ( likely 46.3 400 split), not 47. Quit it with your revisionist history.

Aussiemiler wrote:3. All sub 3:50 milers can break 50 for 400m.

That's not how logic works, I'm afraid. You can't prove something by stating your desired conclusion as a "fact."

Did any of you watch Guerrouj race. The man was a machine. He definitely could go 46 in a 400. Lagat is old now you all must remember he used to be young. Young lagat could for sure go 46.99[quote]someone had to do it wrote:

That's exactly how rich ran 1:43. Go have a look at his races.

Aussiemiler wrote:3. All sub 3:50 milers can break 50 for 400m.

That's not how logic works, I'm afraid. You can't prove something by stating your desired conclusion as a "fact."

You better go to letslogic.com then because on this site everyone clearly knows that all sub 3:50 milers have sub 50 quarter speed.

Regarding Coe:

deanouk wrote:

Yes, but watch this 400 relay from 1981 in 45.6, from practically a standing start. And this was less than 2 hours after front running a 1:44.06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhZGonCBaOM

Agreed -- Coe was remarkably fast. And he seemed better able than most to access his speed even from a record pace.

Thanks also for the clarification on how many races Ryun ran that weekend at the Kansas Relays. It is still pretty impressive to run two four minute miles in 3 days, then add a 47-second 440 ( . . . I am guessing the relay was 4 x 440, so a 47.0 may equate to a 46.9 400m).

Anyone know what Snell's fastest 200 or 400 was?

Re "Consider This".

I totally agree with you. I believe everyone in that first large group

of "pokey" milers all could go sub 48. Furthermore, I don't think

anyone could break 4 minutes with a 400 best of slower the 53.

It is very likely that some or many milers just did not record a

400 best at or about the period of their mile PR.

I would venture to guess that everyone in that aforementioned

group, would have a 400 best time equal to or better the the

women's WR holder at that event. I mention this because one

of the main reasons we have not yet had a woman break 4 minutes

for the mile is that most top women miler/1500 runners cannot

break 60 seconds. The only way we will see a woman run sub

4 is if we convince a sub 50 second 400 meter runner to train

for the mile and put her through the same rigors that a man endures

that trains with that goal in mind.

Sorry to disappoint all those who think that jogging 100 miles per week will result in a fast mile time, but you are going to need talent and speed work.

I think you need to back off with the attitude!

I was making the point that so called facts get distorted over time. We have another poster thinking it was his 3rd run in one day, when it wasn't. I was clearing that one up. That isn't revisionist history, it's correcting a mistake created through others embellishing the actual facts. To that I added that different sources (in this case the same person) give his 440 yd split as slightly different times.

Just because Ryun himself said it was 46.9 some years later does not mean that it was the case. Have you never heard of a sportsman recounting events past and get the facts wrong!? I have, many times.

So it was 46.9. ...How does that become 46.3 for 400m split!?

A 46.9 for 440yds is equivalent to 46.6 for 400m relay. This is then worth about 0.7 slower for a 400m flat, meaning it was worth more like 47.3 for 400m flat.

If you take 0.5 off for it being on cinders then you get 46.8 for 400m.

If you want to be unrealistic and take 1.0 off for cinders then you get 46.3.

If you accept Ventolin's 1.0 sec conversion from relay to open 400 then its worth 46.6.

miling-realist wrote:

Sorry to disappoint all those who think that jogging 100 miles per week will result in a fast mile time, but you are going to need talent and speed work.

Finally!!! This is the conclusion I'm getting from all of this. If someone with talent and who does speedwork, also runs at least around 50 mpw, he should be able to put in some pretty decent mile times. Thank you miling-realist!

marijuologist wrote:

That's sheer bullsh*t. Maybe he never put much effort into his 400 time, but it's impossible to run much under 4:00 if you don't at least have the capacity to break 50.

Not impossible. I ran under 3:40 in the 1500 and could only muster 50-high with a running start at my sharpest.

The New UncleB wrote:

I suspect that any miler who ever run sub 1:43.00 in the 800 could run under 47:00 in the 400. That would include Cram and Elliot and arguably (primarily an 800 meter guy) Joaquim Cruz.

Cruz, yes, easily. Cram and Elliot, NOOOOOO.

TrackCoach wrote:

someone had to do it wrote:

Elliott

Keino

Liquori

Bayi

Walker

Straub

Ovett

Cram

Scott

Maree

El Guerrouj

Lagat

Gebrselassie

Komen

Holman

Webb

Most of these guys had at least 48 quarter mile speed, simply becasue they were also 1:45 half guys.

Liquori? Elliott? Keino? Straub? Geb? Etc.

TrackCoach wrote:

someone had to do it wrote:

Elliott

Keino

Liquori

Bayi

Walker

Straub

Ovett

Cram

Scott

Maree

El Guerrouj

Lagat

Gebrselassie

Komen

Holman

Webb

I would guess most of the guys on your list were capable of running a 47x quarter.

No, most would be slower. As an example Ovett was a good bit faster than most of those and 'only' managed 47X.