Scott Overall Debut 2:10 at Berlin

Chip C. wrote:

tss maybe he would run faster if he was wearing shorts or sumthin

yes that's the really amazing thing

Good point so now we have :

Hansons - Sell

McMillan-Gotcher

Mammoth (Larsen)- Meb

Mammoth (Mahon) - Hall (on his own now)

Hudson - Ritz (now Salazar)

Indiana Elite - Overall (not an American but American trained)

Six groups, 2 sub 2:10 marathoners and four 2:10 marathoners. Is this success or failure? What do you think?

Yeah, dude, they should just try harder! Maybe you should coach those groups and tell those guys to get their shit together!

That's not what I am saying. The coaching is good and the training is good and there are plenty of guys in these groups that are talented enough to run 2:10. However, for some reason, as the world has gotten faster we in the US started considering 2:14 to be an elite marathon time and it's not. I think once the mentality changes we will have a ton of guys running 2:10 or better.

end government greed wrote:

Graeme McDowell wrote:

Very nice result and shows you that we americans with our fancy training groups should have more guys in the 2:10 range.

"Fancy training groups" have never produced 2:10 marathoners. Never will.

Define "fancy...". Kenyans and Ethiopians train in groups.

Shorter ran in groups. Not sure how fancy they were though.

Meb ran/runs in a group. What about Hall? Ritz?

I think we covered that point and mentioned Hall, Ritz and Meb. The groups are good they just need to set their sights higher and define what is actually a succesful result.

Good point so now we have :

Hansons - Sell

McMillan-Gotcher

Mammoth (Larsen)- Meb

Mammoth (Mahon) - Hall (on his own now)

Hudson - Ritz (now Salazar)

Indiana Elite - Overall (not an American but American trained)

Six groups, 2 sub 2:10 marathoners and four 2:10 marathoners.

Is this thread about Scott Overall? Great debut, how many "Europeans" have run quicker on there debut?

Steve Jones, Ian Thompson, Alistair Hutton

Here are his PB's:

http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=1243

He ran 13:48 and 28:49 this year.

His background as a Junior was in the 800 (1.52) and 1500 (3.41), and he kept running those events for years in the early 20s. Good background. He has also run a sub 4 minute mile

TMoney wrote:

Isn't Overall in a "fancy" American training group? Team Indiana Elite?

Coached by Robert Chapman, but lives and trains in the UK. Trains around Teddington: see also Andy Vernon, Collis Birmingham, Linet Masai, Vivian Cheruiyot etc...

Not a bad concentration of talent training in that town over the last few decades.

you can say 2'11....come on guys is 2011...2'11 is ok , but STOP MAKING HIS PERFORMANCE SOUNDS LIKE AN OLIMPIC MEDAL!!

2'11 was ran 50 years ago...

white rabbit wrote:

jjjjjjjjjjjj wrote:

that doesn't prevent them from running other marathons after debuting at New York, and debut marathons are generally much slower anyway than second through fourth marathons, so it is probably better to try the tough one first.

Take a look at the best US debuts ever, not a lot of improvement on them at all.

That doesn't prove anything - by definition the best debuts are going to mostly be people who had really good races in their debut, so they would be less likely to show great improvement.

The statistically valid comparison would be to look at debut vs 2nd/3rd/4th marathon for the best Americans ever. If that shows significant improvement, then it is valid to say that the best people usually get better with some experience.

This still doesn't help in figuring out the future trajectory of someone based on a "good" debut. Maybe he is going to be Britain's all-time great, and the 2:10 is a stepping-stone to a series of 2:07 races in the next few years. Or maybe he just ran his lifetime PR. Either is consistent with the totally plausible rule that "The best marathoners get better after their debut, but the best debuts don't always progress to being the best marathoners."

Overall is solid, and this kind of runner can do well in Championship races, which are usually more tactical than fast. If you look at the pbs of runners who finished in the top 20 at the recent Worlds in Daegu, many of them had similar pbs to Overall - that is 14.00/29.00 type runners can do well in championships......and when I say well, I mean top 20.

He obviously has very decent basic speed with his 3.58 mile. But to run in the 2.05 - 2.07 range you need, not only, superb fuel economy, but also a good 'cushion' between your native 10,000 speed and marathon 10k section speed. Now that top marathon runners are approaching 29 minutes per 10k section speed, Overall would, obviously, be very stretched at that pace.

The revolution in marathon has been on for the past few years, and the really top runners need that good basic speed over 10,000 to be able to operate efficiently in races. Guys like Mutai and others from Kenya, are closer to 27 minutes for 10,000 (or under).

People talk about Galen Rupp and his marathon potential. This will be an unanswered question until we see him at the marathon distance. Remember Ritz - top, top class at half marathon, but not doing himself justice at the classic distance. Ritz should really be in the 2.05 - 2.06 range for marathon, but other variables kick in, which Salazar is privy to. Salazar tried to change Ritz's biomechanics, but that is difficult to do, beyond the early formative years.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today

Because Ryan Hall has just that basic speed you are talking about? Ghost you chat some shit sometime.

The issue is not Overall's basic speed which is excellent for the long race (1.52 - 800/3.41 1500/ 3.58 - mile) but his speed/endurance over 10,000.

Overall probably has a 10,000 potential of around 28:00 - 28.20 - in the right type of race, and running that kind of time would help a lot.

Assuming that Overall is working part time at the 'Sweat Shop' as there are very few (if any) full time workers able to work/train and recuperate at that kind of level. The Japanese 2.08 guy being one exception. But the Jap works a sedentary office job. At the 'Sweat Shop' you are on your feet and running round the shop for most of the shift.

Do any of you guys remember Emile Puttemans, the Belgian 10,000 man (27.39) who worked as a full time gardener for most of the year, except for short periods for competitions when he was relieved of duty? Bernie Ford (27.40/2.10) was another full time worker, back in the late 70s who fitted his training runs around his job as a 'tax man.'

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today, attractive pay and perks

He's ran 13.28 for 5k you mong! That would suggest around current potential around 27.50 considering that he is clearly a strong endurance runner.

I definitely would not run a marathon in overalls.

He could probably run faster in running shorts.