wepmad wrote:
Oh please, I passed the first two exams in highschool. They're just tests.
My dad is an actuary and had some practice exams lying around, it was sort of a bet. Took them cold after a year of statistics and mostway through calculus.
wepmad wrote:
Oh please, I passed the first two exams in highschool. They're just tests.
My dad is an actuary and had some practice exams lying around, it was sort of a bet. Took them cold after a year of statistics and mostway through calculus.
Yet another actuary wrote:
Also, at a lot of companies there is a frustration in that lousy employees with good exam records get promoted while those who do excellent work and struggle with exams do not. It's a given that too many people view passing exams as the most important thing they've accomplished in their life.
This is something a lot of insurance companies on the SOA track are having to deal with. People seem to be starting work with more exams nowadays, perhaps because it's seen as a way to get ahead since you can take them while still in college. This is easier as they move the preliminaries to be computer-based and offer them more often. Additionally, the FAP modules are at your own pace, so people can get through them a lot quicker. Previously employees might have been working for 5-6 years before attaining their Fellowship, and there was often a promotion associated with this milestone. Nowadays, if someone comes in and finishes their exams within two years, they don't have enough experience to deserve the same promotion that Fellowship might have entitled them to previously. As a result I've seen more companies get away from tying early promotions to exam progress and instead shift towards performance-based promotions, which is the norm later in one's career anyway. Passing an exam milestone is then rewarded through a raise or a bonus.
Yet another actuary wrote:
I'm an actuary in Missouri, member of the Casualty Actuarial Society and Member of the American Academy of Actuaries, and here are my thoughts on the profession. I usually tell people to stay away from the profession, and I say this even though I like my job. It's a PAIN to become one. My dad is a physicist, and we joke about how universities award more Physics PhDs each year than there are total members of the CAS (which is currently under 6000). Put it this way, with bad detective skills you should be able to figure out who I am, that's how few actuaries there are.
You have to ask yourself how much you like taking exams and how good you are at them, as that's what the profession boils down to. The first exam is tough yet fair (possibly because it's not written by the CAS or SOA). The next few exams are VERY tough yet usually fairly written. After that, the exams are obnoxious trick-fests, and you need to have more than math skills to pass them. Way too many people who know the material cold fail these tests. You will not advance in the field without passing exams, so the pressure on passing is unreal. Also, more and more companies will fire you if you don't pass exams in at a decent clip. While this has always been commonplace on the life insurance side, this is a new development in the property side.
The exam process leads to other issues as well. Way too many actuaries have this awful sense of entitlement, as they feel like they've earned their salary and the right to pick on lower level employees. Also, at a lot of companies there is a frustration in that lousy employees with good exam records get promoted while those who do excellent work and struggle with exams do not. It's a given that too many people view passing exams as the most important thing they've accomplished in their life.
For all I know, I might be the only member of the CAS who has run a sub 3 hour marathon. I haven't heard of one person who's been able to pass exams and race at a semi-competent level. Boy I hope I'm wrong and that there are faster actuaries than me, but I've searched and haven't found any. If you know of one, please let me know!!!! It's tough to find an actuary who has a serious hobby in anything outside of fantasy football, let alone running.
My exam record is admittedly horrible, and I would love to go back in time and see how good a runner I could have been if I chose a different profession. The whole process has taken a huge toll on me. And I thought I would kick butt in exams, as I graduated with good grades from a top 5 college (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and Stanford). Boy was I wrong, as I've disgraced my family name time after time with each test that I failed! On the other hand, I live a simple, comfortable life in a great area of the country, and my hours are usually reasonable and I'm for the most part doing interesting work. Feel free to ask me more questions if you have anything specific.
Are there any other running actuaries out there (students or credentialed)? I'd love to put together a list of top marathon times run by an actuary!
Ehhh...not exactly the news I wanted to hear. I have no problem taking tests, but not passing them and getting terminated is something that really bothers me. Is this fairly common? I know you said that it is a trend that is picking up, but it sounds like a ton of pressure. I enjoy pressure, but it seems a little extreme. Thank you for the input though. It really helps.
Notthe1andonly wrote:
Ehhh...not exactly the news I wanted to hear. I have no problem taking tests, but not passing them and getting terminated is something that really bothers me. Is this fairly common? I know you said that it is a trend that is picking up, but it sounds like a ton of pressure. I enjoy pressure, but it seems a little extreme. Thank you for the input though. It really helps.
Where I work (Insurance), you don't usually get fired for not passing. Work experience starts to balance things out. What will happen is that you hit a pay ceiling pretty quickly without your Fellowship. 100k maybe?
There are some niches that are hard to find people for, so think outside general insurance and annuities. I'd love to tell more, but it's probably against the rules (from a business intelligence standpoint).
Oh, at least where I'm at, you better be a wizard with excel.
Ax wrote:
I'm an actuary at a large insurance company and am also in charge of our full-time actuarial student recruiting. (Student = still taking exams.) The thing about more exams not necessarily being better is correct -- there are definitly diminishing returns beyond two exams if you don't have the work experience to back it up. It also gives the impression that you think exams are the only key to success, which is not true in any good actuarial role.
The skill set that you need will vary somewhat between insurance and consulting, as well as between life, health, P&C, etc. Being great at pure math is all well and good, but you're not just doing complicated math problems all day, which is why someone with a graduate degree in Math or Stats isn't necessarily all that impressive. In fact, I often worry about candidates who I come across that seem "too academic" and wouldn't be able to handle the work environment very well.
I can't speak for every actuarial role, but at my company the actuaries are looked upon to rise up and become business leaders within the company. Our success is enhanced by our quantitive skills, which often differentiates us from people with pure business backgrounds. The job involves math, stats, accounting, computer programming, finance, insruance knowledge, as well as general business accumen. These are the kind of skills we try to assess when evaluating entry-level candidates, along with the usual communication and leadership abilities.
I am not an actuary, but this sounds similar to discussions I had with my grandfather over 30 years ago. Harvard grad, actuary, worked for MONY, retired around 60, pension consultant until he passed, country club, huge house in Scarsdale, impressive. His brother, also Harvard, similar background, eventually became a sales executive, then CEO of a major US firm in a different industry. I was young, but my sense was grandpa's wealth came from leadership roles, not bean counting. He pointed out in the 70's that actuaries were always in high demand, not much has changed. I work at a major Bank, on paper, math majors are highly desirable candidates; if you have a personality and some leadership skills that kind of background is very intimidating in the business world.
Each company is different when it comes to how it handles unsuccessful exam takers. At some places, all the pressure is self induced. At others, they will take away your study time and won't let you attend exam seminars if you don't pass exams quickly. And at others, they will fire you if you fail three exams in a row. Companies know that the stricter their exam passing policy, the better the exam results will be. But if companies make the guidelines too strict, they will scare away too many talented people. It's a balancing act of sorts.
Put it this way: I would never in a million years want to put my worst enemy through what I've been through in the exam process. Look, the exams suck. They are old school in all the wrong ways. The exams are closed book (at least you're allowed to use a scientific calculator), and there is a ton of memorization of both formulas and lists. The exams also test speed and exam taking skills just as much actuarial knowledge. And there is no worse feeling in the world than having to take an exam more than once. Now don't get me wrong, no matter how good of an exam taker you are you must study hard and know the material in order to pass, but knowing the material alone won't get you in the top 35%. Most of the stuff that's tested you'll never use. And it's sad, because some of the material is actually interesting and useful, but the presentation is such that it's cheap hazing.
While the job outlook for actuaries has improved a little bit in the past few years, it's still not good. I know some credentialed actuaries who are unemployed, and that NEVER was the case even five years ago. It used to be that if you passed exams you got a guaranteed plush job with tons of security. Now, if you pass exams there's still a very good chance you'll get a nice job, but it's no longer a slam dunk. And the days of actuaries working 35 hours a week with no job pressure are long gone.
One other note. When I started the profession about ten years ago, there were lots of people in their thirties, forties and fifties taking exams. Now, it's a young man's game, and I have no idea why this is the case. When I got my designation, hardly anyone was older than me, and I am well under 40 years old!
The advice other people have given in this thread has been very good. The work is a lot more interesting than people make it out to be, and there is a lot of camaraderie within the profession, as people will go to great lengths to help a fellow actuary out. Notice how few people have mentioned running while taking exams. I know engineers, doctors, and lawyers who have run well, but I don't know one even semi-successful runner who was an actuary. If anyone knows an actuary with a sub 2:45 marathon time (or sub 3 hour time for a woman), please post it here!
wepmad wrote:
wepmad wrote:Oh please, I passed the first two exams in highschool. They're just tests.
My dad is an actuary and had some practice exams lying around, it was sort of a bet. Took them cold after a year of statistics and mostway through calculus.
The actual exams are much harder than the practice exams.
The exams have also seemed to get harder over time. Taht being said, none of the material in the first two exams is beyond first year college level math (or high school for a good student).
If you are not right out of college, do NOT become an actuary. No matter how experienced you are, they will start you at the bottom making nothing. The exams are as described (horribly written and you have a random chance of passing even if you know the material). The work itself is fairly analytical, but not any more challenging than finance, accounting etc. That being said, actuaries do not have to work very hard at all at my company, and no one ever gets fired. If you're looking for an interesting, intellectually challenging environment, stay away from the insurance industry...
how many more exams have you passed since then, chief?
Billdog1234 wrote:
how many more exams have you passed since then, chief?
Wow you resurrected an 8 year old thread to ask me that?
I have a PhD in physics, so I've had to pass at least a couple exams, but none of them were actuarial. :) My dad thought I should look into actuarial science as a backup plan in case physics fell through. From a very practical standpoint that made a lot of sense. He figured if I could pass an actuarial exam or two it would be easier for me to get an internship. But I ended up getting paid physics internships during the summers in college, and then I got into grad school, and I switched fields eventually, but even when I was "unemployed" I could still earn some money teaching college courses.
I really liked re-reading this thread because it's interesting to see the viewpoints of actuaries like my dad. He goes to conferences and tells me he sees the same people, but I didn't realize there were so few of you guys. My dad ran some marathons back in the day but never came close to 3 hours, so that other guy's record is safe :)
These days there quite a few similar fields. I've seen data scientists and statisticians discuss actuarial science on various forums and they're always generally quite respectful of actuaries.
I'd be interested to hear how things worked out for the other posters, and would also be interested to hear more stories about actuarial careers.
Property and casualty
Life
Health.
Retirement
Other?
2:49.
Not a woman but masters division.
Why the obsession with fast actuaries? Look for one and you’ll find one. As for career advice, if you like math and are business-oriented, score a few interviews and ask a lot of questions. It’s a noble career.
Exam-wise, content is not rocket science - the speed at which you need to complete each exam is the challenge, especially the “essay” exams at FSA level. If you are writing complete sentences with proper grammar, you probably won’t get through the whole exam. Outside of exams, it’s important to know where you’re headed. When I hit the FSA level, it was a bit of a let-down. I preferred studying and working toward a short-term goal to then becoming a full-time employee with longer-term responsibilities.
Me - I’m hoping to hit 2:45 at some point, but don’t run a whole lot of marathons. Between kids, life, and training, half marathons are easier to prepare for.