Pathetic Men's 1500!

those scrubs deserved to lose their world spots and people like Leer need to be reminded that they could've attempted to earn a world spot instead of snatching it away from someone else in the last 100. instead, they were a bunch of parasites and now America is represented by a scrub who wont even make it out of the rounds.

CalendarMan wrote:

For all the people referring to these races as "pathetic" really have no clue about this sport.

You are wrong. You are just as wrong as a number of later-regretful 1500m racers were during last night's final.

And what is the sport you are referring to? Track and Field? Or are you meaning an event? A championship race should never be left to tactics. This is about bringing your A game. Otherwise...if you don't...

You let all the B gamers in. Because their A game is your B game. Get it. Bauhs...Centro get places without qualifiers. Not Wheating...Not Curtis...Not Nelson.

"A"=3:35.00 'b'= 3:38.00

who has it who can chase.

Tactical racing is okay, but when the women go thru 800m faster then the men... Really... I guess we will see how things turn out later this summer.

To rehash, all the male 1500m finalists are really embarrassed they didn't meet the viewing standards/expectations of the LR audience. They all apologize. In the future they'll pressure one of the contestants into becoming a sacrifical pacesetter. And why would they do this? To earn the praise of LR mavens. There is nothing greater. Nothing.

Silly boys.

The chance of anyone in this field moving up in the standings by setting a fast pace from the gun is so small that they all knew it would be stupid to take it.

It's true that whoever has to have a fast pace to run his best is the guy who should take it on himself to make that pace happen (if no one else is there to do it). But who exactly would that have been in this race? We can rightly criticize Leer for COMPLAINING about the slow pace but not being willing to make it fast himself. But Leer wouldn't have broken enough guys by leading at sub-3:40 pace and probably wouldn't have broken the guys who did beat him even if he'd run sub-3:35 pace. He only would have squandered his energy and wound up beaten even worse. Maybe Manzano couldn't have handled that pace at this time, but neither could Leer if he was setting it himself. Same story for anybody else in the race. Name the guy who would have placed higher than he did by getting in front and running sub-3:40 pace from the gun. You can't, because they all would have sat on him like a sofa while he used up the most energy of anybody in the race.

If you're going to lead with the intent of dropping as many people as possible, the pace cannot be moderate or what's called "honest." You must take them to their limits with a hammering pace. That's smart only if your fitness is so much better than that of your rivals that the burden of leading is lesser than the risk of taking your chances in a slow race - i.e., it works if you CAN drop enough of them to have a shot at placing high. The thing is, NO ONE in this field was so much fitter or so good of a frontrunner that they stood a good enough chance of beating any more runners than they did had they set a fast pace early. 1:58 at 800 would have set up a 3:38-ish race, but it wouldn't have broken anyone other than maybe a guy or two. The leader would have gotten swallowed up and been beaten by pretty much the same number of guys that did beat him, if not more. 1:55 at 800 would have strung out the field, but it wouldn't have dropped the main players and it would have been suicide. No frontrunning strategy at either an "honest" or "fast" pace was going to work for anyone.

Again, ask yourself who the slowest kickers in the race were and then check to see how many runners they could have dropped by running at close to their PR pace from the gun without overextending themselves to do it. The fastest kickers were also better overall 1,500 runners, so the slower finishers couldn't have dropped them and wouldn't have done diddly squat for themselves by leading. They did, of course, have a good chance to finish higher if SOMEONE ELSE set a fast pace early. See how it works?

Sweet Nell Fenwick wrote:

If you're going to lead with the intent of dropping as many people as possible, the pace cannot be moderate or what's called "honest." You must take them to their limits with a hammering pace. That's smart only if your fitness is so much better than that of your rivals that the burden of leading is lesser than the risk of taking your chances in a slow race - i.e., it works if you CAN drop enough of them to have a shot at placing high.

This is correct. And look to the women's 800 and 1500 for examples of how/how not to perform this strategy.

In the 800 it worked well for Montano because there were only a few in the field capable of running low 1:58. And she executed it to perfection by continually pushing hard relentlessly almost from the start.

OTOH, Thomas came in with the fastest time in the field and several of her key rivals (Rowberry and Pierce, apparently) not in the best of shape. But instead of just gradually increasing the intensity and pace with 1000 or so left, she went way too fast too soon. I think there was a good chance she could have burned off everyone except Uceny and Simpson, but didn't exercise enough patience.

Quote: You are wrong. You are just as wrong as a number of later-regretful 1500m racers were during last night's final.

And what is the sport you are referring to? Track and Field? Or are you meaning an event? A championship race should never be left to tactics. This is about bringing your A game. Otherwise...if you don't...

You let all the B gamers in. Because their A game is your B game. Get it. Bauhs...Centro get places without qualifiers. Not Wheating...Not Curtis...Not Nelson.

___________________________________________________

Totally agree......Paragraph three above is right on the money. "Jog-and-kick" 1500s, when won in 3:40+, don't do the US any favors because these types of races open the doors to "B" level athletes who can come away with the win due to lots of fast twitch muscle fiber, yet fall far short of running to the standard necessary in a 1500m to race and win against the world's best.

Let's see if Mr. Centrowitz gets the "A" qualifier and then makes it out of the heats at Daegu.......a very tall order.

I don't know about B level athletes being let into the game.

Places 2-4 ran 3:32 or better last year.

Centro may be in world class shape right now and just hasn't gotten into a fast race. We were definitely watching him.

If he hits 3:34, and I think he will, it will show that the cream rises no matter what the pace.

The bottom 6 finishers were guys who were never really in the discussion for making the team.

An exciting race.... Looked to me like Centro was ready to run any pace, slow or fast, and was willing to stay near the leaders whether fast or slow.... Wheating was looking to win a cheapie and got his ass outkicked.

Different angle...all the bitching here about pace is irrelevant. The fellows weren't racing to amuse & entertain the fantasy league experts at LR. LR posters are projecting their expectations onto a race they aren't participating in. Racing, all racing is a special environment and flows w/the whims of the field.

Bump from USATF meet.

toro wrote:

Bump from USATF meet.

No kidding, I wonder how many people are going to come back and eat their words now that Centro has made it to the final?

Unless Centro gets gold they don't have to eat their words.

People were unhappy that the slow USATF race put a lesser runner like Centro on the team.

You still don't think the US was better off with Centro on the team then someone else?

Even if Lagat kept his spot and Wheating was knocked off the team, the US was still obviously better off with Centro this year than Wheating.

He doesn't have to win gold to prove he deserved to be on the team.

He is the only US representative in the final.

toro wrote:

People were unhappy that the slow USATF race put a lesser runner like Centro on the team.

You still don't think the US was better off with Centro on the team then someone else?

Even if Lagat kept his spot and Wheating was knocked off the team, the US was still obviously better off with Centro this year than Wheating.

He doesn't have to win gold to prove he deserved to be on the team.

He is the only US representative in the final.

Centro definitly deserved to be on the team. I didn't read the thread, I just thought they were talking about how the women 1500 runners were better than our men. Which is true.

XCdudeMD wrote:

"Jog-and-kick" 1500s, when won in 3:40+, don't do the US any favors because these types of races open the doors to "B" level athletes who can come away with the win due to lots of fast twitch muscle fiber, yet fall far short of running to the standard necessary in a 1500m to race and win against the world's best.

Let's see if Mr. Centrowitz gets the "A" qualifier and then makes it out of the heats at Daegu.......a very tall order.

Hey, I just got back from Mars.

Did Centrowitz ever get the "A" qualifier?

And if so, did he make it out of the heats?

I can't believe they let a "B" level athlete win the USATF 1500.

Lagat, Manzano and Wheating should be ashamed of themselves.