• cross country kid
      • Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 10:18AM
      • cross country kid
      • The time has come to prepare for cross country season. The three names I listed are all outstanding. I have been reading a lot and cant wait to get started. For malmo plan I do not have training partners because everyone is very competitive and does there own thing. Malmo if you are there I have a few questions please. I see you say 1 tempo run and 1 track workout like 10x 400 and you say doubles all the time. My 5k is mid 18s. I want to break 17 this year is this realistic? I was going to start at 40 miles base up to maybe 65 or 70 mpw. I am hoping for something custom based off of my time and ability. I ran mid 30 mpw for track season. I just finished my first year and want to make sure I train correctly. Should I start doubles right away and how do I break up the miles in the a.m. and p.m.? What pace should I do all of these workouts? For the track workout I was going to slow jog 3 minutes after each set is that okay? Later in the summer should I do hills and fartlek? Please advice,I appreciate the help.
    • J.R.B.
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 10:29AM - in reply to cross country kid
      • J.R.B.
      • Just run baby.
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 12:31PM - in reply to oh boy
      • cross country kid
      • oh boy, I never said you need partners for som. I said "For malmo plan I do not have training partners because everyone is very competitive and does there own thing" I know I do not need partners.
        Help please. This is important.
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 12:43PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • oh boy
      • cross country kid wrote:
        oh boy, I never said you need partners for som. I said "For malmo plan I do not have training partners because everyone is very competitive and does there own thing" I know I do not need partners.
        Help please. This is important.
        Well, then I would do something like summer of malmo personally, simply because it makes the most sense. You will be prepared to really start doing workouts in late August/early September. I have done my own personal variations of it unknowingly in the past and has really worked out well for me. For instance, during a distance run I'd go into the track and run 8 x 400 at 5k pace or even a bit slower and then keep on with the run. I did a lot of accels (150's) too. I rarely in the summer did tempo runs longer than 3 miles, ever.

        Then I joined this site and began reading malmo's posts and realized I had unknowingly been sort of of following the philosopy. One thing I did not do more of was doubles which I regret now.

        Malmo's paces are meant to be easy and able to be done during any aerobic/base phase. Remember, if you plan on running 5 x 1000 at 5k pace later in the season, summer of malmo is preparing you to prepare. So chopping those intervals into way shorter segments makes them easier but also prepares your body to run faster longer later.

        That's my experience with the philosophy and hopefully malmo himself will post here.
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 2:04PM - in reply to oh boy
      • cross country kid
      • oh boy, What are your prs? How many miles did you get up to in high school? What improvement did you see? I would like to do som.
        Malmo are you around? I need your help.
    • malmo
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 3:16PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • malmo
      • cross country kid wrote:
        The time has come to prepare for cross country season. The three names I listed are all outstanding. I have been reading a lot and cant wait to get started. For malmo plan I do not have training partners because everyone is very competitive and does there own thing. Malmo if you are there I have a few questions please. I see you say 1 tempo run and 1 track workout like 10x 400 and you say doubles all the time. My 5k is mid 18s. I want to break 17 this year is this realistic? I was going to start at 40 miles base up to maybe 65 or 70 mpw. I am hoping for something custom based off of my time and ability. I ran mid 30 mpw for track season. I just finished my first year and want to make sure I train correctly. Should I start doubles right away and how do I break up the miles in the a.m. and p.m.? What pace should I do all of these workouts? For the track workout I was going to slow jog 3 minutes after each set is that okay? Later in the summer should I do hills and fartlek? Please advice,I appreciate the help.
        Cross country kid, while I have no problem with people running 10 x 400 at SOM paces, 10 x 400 is not a SOM workout per se.

        Every thing you need to know is written in SOM. Asking for specifics is not part of SOM, but I'll give you some guidance anyway.

        YEs, dropping down to 17:00 is realistic. At your age the biggest improvements will come from the simple reality that your body is maturing month by month. Compound that with the fact that the time that you are accumulating the benefits of aerobic training is getting longer and longer you should improve regardless what you do during any particular 3 month stretch.

        Add to maturity and accumulation the immediate benefits of sound training priciples you will improve on top of that.

        Remember, SOM is between season training. The presumption here is that you've been running competitively for nine months and you need to recharge. But you don't need to stop running to recharge. You just need to train at what most people would call "easy" training. SOM is just that.

        If you are doing 'sets' or need longer breaks between groups of repeats (sets), I can guarantee you are NOT doing SOM-style training. So it's not OK to break this stuff down into sets.

        To start doing doubles for the first time start off with 2 or 3 miles in the morning. That's how I started. Do it every day for a week. See how you feel. Either continue on at 2-3 miles or increase it, or some of both. It doesn't matter. The important thing is to get into the routine and get the experience of what it's like to train seriously. That's the cool thing about running. You don't have to be El Guerrouj or Bekele to train in the same way. Your skill level is going to be different, but you have something that the World Class guys don't have. You have a high ceiling and you won't know were it is until you start to look for it. The world class guys know exactly where their ceiling is. They're just trying to nudge it up a little higher.
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 3:25PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • oh boy
      • cross country kid wrote:
        oh boy, What are your prs? How many miles did you get up to in high school? What improvement did you see? I would like to do som.
        Malmo are you around? I need your help.
        While not great, quite drastic. My junior year of cross country ran 17:10, track ran 1600-4:48, 3200-10:40. Then ran that way the summer, as stated, and improved to 16:20, 1600-4:30, 3200-9:36. I trained that way in the winter too, before senior year of track, so obviously it helped me a lot. Again, wish I had done doubles. Good luck.

        In college we trained a lot more this way and we need not go into that yet.

        Thanks malmo for your post.
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 3:53PM - in reply to malmo
      • cross country kid
      • malmo, I understand about the doubles and how important they are. Every day I will do 3 miles in the a.m. How much in the p.m.? It is very easy with your som to get in a lot of miles. How many miles is appropriate when I am at mid 30s now? Once a week I will do a tempo starting at 4 miles. I will also do 1 track workout. Is this okay?
    • malmo
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 4:03PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • malmo
      • Start of with what your body already knows then expand. You are running in the 30s now then run 5 mornings at 2-3 miles then get the balance in the evening. 2-3 miles x 5 is 10-15. Maybe the first week you just to 10-15 more than you are doing now?

        I think for someone at your level 4 mile temp runs is too far. Perhaps it migth be better to complelty forget the tempo runs for 2-3 weeks and focus on doing repeats of 800-1200 at your tempo pace or a little faster.

        It's OK ro run two sessions on the track right away. SOM isn't what you are used to doing. The paces are slower and they will not beat you up. The important thing is to get ito the routine, start with easy paces and nudge them a little faster/more/farther as you progess through the Summer.

        Once you start tempo runs just start off with 3 miles, then go to 4. Or, try this: run 3 miles at a easy tempo pace, then do another 4-8 400s at the same pace with a 1:00 rest.
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 4:32PM - in reply to malmo
      • cross country kid
      • This is great. I am starting tomorrow. I will run doubles 5 days a week. 3 miles easy in the a.m. 4 to 5 miles in the p.m. also easy. I will do 6x800 repeats at a little quicker than tempo pace once a week and do the same for 4x1200 once a week. With each of the repeats I will do 1 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down. I will follow this for 3 weeks.
        After the first 3 weeks I will increase mileage and start 1 tempo run per week. How long should I follow that? Does the above meet som guidelines? I do not want to be disqualified before I start.
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 5:04PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • oh boy
      • I looked back at my training logs to get an idea of the paces I was running. In the winter of 97-98, I did mile repeats if you can call them, in the middle of a distance run, at 3k pace per mile + 1 minute. I had ran 9:59 in 3200 at Kent State in early Jan. and was running this pace. I did not pre-calculate this pace, it is just the pace that felt right. It was 3-4 x 1600 at 6:00 with a 200 jog between, which really was no big deal at all. To give you an idea, this is slower than LT pace, because LT pace would have been about 5:40. However, these were long repeats! For the 400's I was running, which was 8 x 400 on another day in a distance run, I ran 85's, which not surprisingly was near my LT pace. This is just what felt right. I also did a lot of 150 accels like malmo mentions and I truly believe this was a staple to making all running paces "feel" easier.

        I know that this was not true SOM, but was following the same principles. By the way I ran the 9:59 2 mile off just this type of training. I cannot stress enough the importance of the comfort of the paces!

        Be patient, disciplined, and believe that this will work for you and I promise you it will. I can give you other snapshots of my log if you want to, via email. My paces may match more of what you are running vs. what malmo ran. Again, if I could go back, I would have done it better than I did, but since back then I didn't know what I do now, I didn't.

        In hindsight, I woulda dropped one of the workouts and just done accels. Then, I would have added 3 doubles to my week, which would have been easy to do, maybe even 4.

        Good discussion!
    • jdex
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 5:43PM - in reply to oh boy
      • jdex
      • A 9:59 in my eyes is very impressive off that type of work, I can't achieve that off much more intense sessions.

        I am very curious to know what other things you were doing, how often did you do the 150 accels, the length and quantity of tempo runs, did you ever do any long runs?

        How much mileage were you doing at the time, and what else filled the week besides the repeats, tempos are 150 accels. Was it just easy running, which I am presuming? What pace would that be do you believe?

        I would love to see your log if you would be willing to share it(email is linked in user name), I am very close to breaking 10:00, but my 400 and mile repeats are much faster than your paces. Thus I am really curious to see how others have done this. I would really appreciate a response if it is possible, thank you.
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 5:48PM - in reply to jdex
      • oh boy
      • You got it. I'll email you shortly.
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 6:03PM - in reply to oh boy
      • cross country kid
      • oh boy, I would like to read your training. Would you mind posting it? I really enjoy reading those type of logs from people who have done well. Do you think what I will be doing is som? I would like to eventually run 9:30 for 2 miles and break 4:30 for the mile in high school. I am excited to start tomorrow. Hopefully malmo replies.
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 6:07PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • oh boy
      • cross country kid wrote:
        oh boy, I would like to read your training. Would you mind posting it? I really enjoy reading those type of logs from people who have done well. Do you think what I will be doing is som? I would like to eventually run 9:30 for 2 miles and break 4:30 for the mile in high school. I am excited to start tomorrow. Hopefully malmo replies.
        No problem guys. Take my logs for what they are worth. Read them and then improve upon them by modifying them to be SOM. I'm sure malmo will agree. You can always try to improve off something someone else did. I always said I could have trained better during that period and what malmo is saying is right on!
    • cross country kid
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 7:12PM - in reply to oh boy
      • cross country kid
      • oh boy, are you posting your logs? My parents wont let me give out there email. I dont have one. malmo are you around?
    • oh boy
      • RE: Lydiard vs magill vs malmo for summer cross country training 5/22/2011 7:25PM - in reply to cross country kid
      • oh boy
      • cross country kid wrote:
        oh boy, are you posting your logs? My parents wont let me give out there email. I dont have one. malmo are you around?
        Understandable. I can share what I have by tomorrow evening. You will see parallels between malmo's philosophy vs. what I did, but you will also see errors and what I should have done differently.