Is It Nus To Run A 50 Miler?

Birthday Runner wrote:

Is this the recipe for a satisfying debut or for a disaster of a day comprised of a 35 mile run and a 15 mile death march?

It seems well-suited for the longer distance, and I'm tempted to give it a try.

You're nus. Don't.

Never gone over a marathon but did a cross country/mountain marathon which with all the hills added about 50 mins to your time.

Near the start I wondered why some of the people were walking part of the hills. Near the end I was nearly on my knees -and I was born in a mountain area!

Although I did reach a point were my legs were too stiff to walk and i could only run! Well a shuffling jog

I would go not for a run/walk statedgy. Rather aim to run most of it (lower your start pace though) with short sections of walking say on hills or when taking on drinks etc - you will only spill half of it running so might as well take it easy a bit

It will be a great challenge - good luck on your 50 at 50

THAT'S NUTS! YOU'RE NUTS! NUTS I TELL YOU, NUTS! NUTS, NUTS, NUTS!

Sounds like fun, have a good time. But, make sure you work on eating while running, and you are going to need to go slower than 30-40 seconds per mile than marathon pace, especially on a tough course.

I'm a little older than you and have run 6 50s and a few hundreds and here is my perspective:

As far as walking/running it really depends on the course. If it is a very hilly course and you try and run the uphills you will pay a very steep price. If it's a flat course there is no reason you should not be able to run the entire race. I would just suggest starting out a lot slower than what you think is comfortable and you will find yourself passing people towards the end. But your pace will slow in the second part of the race, it's just a matter of how much.

I find that ultra training in general is a lot easier than marathon training because you can accomplish a lot with just long runs on the weekend. Many ultra runners train this way. Consistency is not as critical as with shorter distances. I think the difference between ultra runners that are competitive and those are that not is the kind of training they do during the week. If you really want to be competitive you need to do more in the week - and it's not just distance. You will need to do the kind of tempo work, etc. that is required for marathon training.

i concur with concord, but have a few thoughts to add.

first, start out easy. think of the race as a long (long) easy run. don't get caught up in anyone else's pace. stay conversational and get to know the people around you. not only will this make for an enjoyable day, it will also make for a fast time. i have used this strategy for the first 3/4 of a couple of 50 milers, retained even splits, and finished first masters at one and set a course record (not just masters record) at the other.

second, in accordance with point 1 above, let the course dictate if/where/how much you walk. until you've covered, say, 35 miles, don't let your heart rate soar and don't let your legs burn from exertion. still, don't dawdle when you walk -- you're only walking because running that bit of terrain would take too much out of you for later.

third, if you've followed 1 and 2 properly, you should be able to turn on the effort toward the end. as in any race, it will take more effort to retain the pace that was easy earlier on.

fourth, you will need to take in nutrition, but don't tarry at aid stations -- this can cost huge amounts of time. carrying fluids is the best strategy because you can drink when you're thirsty (and not wear the drink on your shirt and up your nose), and you will waste the least amount of time. if aid stations are frequent, you will be able to skip some, and if they're not the aid station workers should take your bottle and fill it with what you need while you grab something extra to drink or something more solid. for 50 miles, i do best with just water, sports drink, and gels, but your mileage might vary. figure out what hydration system (bottles or pack, and what brand) works best for you during training, and practice taking in other nutrition, too.

fifth, the training pattern you mention should get you across the finish line, but to do well, as concord mentioned, don't entirely forego tempo and speed.

have fun and happy 50 (i'm 50, too, and am playing around with short stuff for a change of pace before moving back up in distance).

No. But, it is an admission you think you'll never run faster at shorter distances, which is a much more difficult thing for folks to face than the notion of lots of pain.

I've read these threads enough to know better than to post one without proof reading the subject. When I saw that typo, I expected to find 3 pages worth of very creative, entertaining, skewering posts when I returned here today. Glad to see that despite my sticky T key, folks still posted some genuine responses.

Hospital, that's true. The best 5K I've managed in the past two years is 19:45, and although I do interval work, I have a hard time stringing together a meaningful number of repeats faster than a 6:00 pace, even at distances as short as 600 meters. Intervals tend to be 6-8 1K repeats at 6:10-6:15 with 2 minute rests. Tempos tend to be run at 6:50-7:00 at distances of 4-7 miles.

I'm no more competitive at longer distances, again usually finishing in the top 20%, but out of age group placing. However, I find longer distances more enjoyable. Yes, the suffering lasts longer and is more intense, but it's a smaller fraction of the overall race. A 5K stops being fun before the first mile is even over, whereas a half marathon is enjoyable for the first 7-8 miles and a marathon for the first 15 before things begin to slowly deteriorate. From what others are saying above, it sounds like an ultra continues this trend. 35 miles of enjoyable running sounds like a good time (we'll just put the last 15 out of mind for now). Also, 5K's are over too quickly, whereas I feel like I've accomplished something meaningful after completing a longer race. So going longer and trying an ultra seems like the natural next step.

The running theme in these responses appears to be to respect the course as pointed out by UK, Concord and Stressed. I train on gently undulating courses (both trails and roads) that constantly give and take back elevation changes of up to about 300 ft, and I tend to select races with a similar or easier elevation profile. So there are no mountain races on the calendar for now. The two ultras I'm leaning towards are the JFK and Le Grizz neither of which look like ball busters. The first offers an abundance of aid stations and support and the second, an inspirational setting.

For long runs, I carry 20 oz of Gatorade and several GUs in a fuel belt and during races my appetite stays healthy (hitting water stops and consuming Gus) until I begin to deteriorate at which point I forgo the stops and just focus on finishing. Not sure if I can get away with this for the last 15 of an ultra with the less intense pace or if I'll need to consume calories even when my stomach is feeling green.

Plugging my half marathon pace (7:00) into a pace predictor calculator yields a pace of 8:15 for 50 miles, which extrapolates well from my paces of 6:20 for 5k, 6:40 10K, 7:00 hm and 7:40 m. Unless convinced otherwise, 8:15 will be my target entering training. It sounds like much of the advice I've been reading on the web is geared towards the more casual runner whose goal may be to just finish 50, and from what I'm reading here from the more experienced crowd is that running 50 (with the exception of steep hills) at a reasonable pace is doable.

It doesn't sound like there's much experience here though with including back-to-back weekend long runs as the backbone of a training program. I may give this a try along with a mid-week short tempo or 5K race to keep the legs sharp after recovering form the weekend.

Thanks for the input. See you on the trails.

There are a few ultra runners on here, but, much better places to start getting to grip with the training concepts required to do it without a lot of headaches. Most of the folks on here think of the marathon as the end of the line, so, you start kind of getting into the edge of board's knowledge base when you step beyond that distance. Personally, I get too bored running for more than 2 hours, so, I could never do it. But, I know folks, usually bright, quiet types, who enjoy the solitude. The physical pain is just one part of it, but, from what I understand, you can get some very interesting mental (dare I say spiritual) experiences on those longer races. Moving that much becomes almost a meditative experience if you are so inclined. Hope it goes well for you.

Hats off to you. I am a younger guy and still focus on shorter races, but I hope to be like you when I am older. Good luck and congrats on being a f***ing cool old guy. I hope you have a beard.

Birthday Runner wrote:

It doesn't sound like there's much experience here though with including back-to-back weekend long runs as the backbone of a training program. I may give this a try along with a mid-week short tempo or 5K race to keep the legs sharp after recovering form the weekend.

I actually have trained quite a bit by using long back-to-backs on the weekend as my primary training. It's usually out of necessity because of a heavy travel schedule for work. And as no longer stressed indicated it is an effective enough method for preparing you for the distance.

But my experience is that I performed much better when I only did one long run a week and supplemented more tempo and speed work during the week into my training. I think it just comes down to having a higher level of fitness that comes from mixing long runs with some more intensive stuff. But that is just my experience.

One other thing that many novices may not take into account is that nausea is a common experience. I'm on the West Coast and have never run either of the races you are considering, but at many ultras there is a lot of different kinds of food at the aid stations. Just don't overdo it! Take in stuff that is easy to digest and nibble more frequently rather than eating a lot at once. No longer stressed gave some excellent aid station strategy.

Also, for a lot of people undiluted Gatorade causes stomach issues after a while, so just pay attention to what your digestive system. A bad case of nausea can turn a great experience on the trail into a miserable one pretty quickly.

Good luck!

I focus solely on ultras and win most of the races I run. My advice is to never walk during one. The sooner you walk in a race the easier it will be to walk later.

Also do not read Hal Higdons advice on ultrarunning. He knows nothing about them. I am not going the ask Shaq on how to shoot free throws just because he is a pro NBA player.

If it is a hilly race than train on the hills everyday and get good at them. It is ultrarunning not ultrawalking. So run the damn thing.

I disagree with "Ultrarunner that wins 5ks" who is either elitist or a troll. I'll agree with one thing: the sooner you walk, the easier it is to walk again.

Interesting to bring up Hal Higdon. Many of his marathon plans involve two longer back-to-back runs. It's a good way for a runner to have less total weekly volume, but still be capable of finishing a long distance race. It's a good strategy. Maybe it's not the best training to set a blazing time, but it's great training ESPECIALLY if the idea of a 50 miler strikes you as daunting in some regards.

I'd ask Shaq how to shoot free throws rather than not ask anyone at all. Just because a person hasn't set the world record in a 50 miler doesn't mean they can't offer decent advice.

Do not train on hills every day. I think that's just about the worst thing you could do. Your body needs to adapt to stresses in order to get a benefit. If you're newer to hills, give two or three days between hilly courses so your legs can recover-- much like what you'd do following a hard workout. There can come a point where you include a degree of hills on each day, but only two or three times per week should you really allow your legs to feel fatigued specifically because of the hills. Hills recruit a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber and they don't respond as well to daily abuse like slow twitch muscles do.

I agree with most of what's been said - especially about course management. Walk when running would be inefficient, keep it easy early, learn to eat on the run.

If you can get hold of a copy of Lore of Running, which details Bruce Fordyce's training schedule for Comrades. That may be a good place to start when designing your own plan.

Train on hills everyday if the race is on hills. That is why people like Micheal Wardian get smoked in mountain ultras.

Shaq is a terrible free throw shooter and anyone that would ask for his advice is an idiot.

It's Only Me, Lore of Running was one of the first books I read when I started running and wanted to learn more about the science behind training. I found it to be a provocative read full of contrarian views on the reasons behind our physical limitations. One line from the book that stuck somewhere in my mind in the years since was Oak's insistence that when running your first ultra, you should take the number of hours the course will be open, divide it by the number of miles in the race and that should be your target pace. Being a veteran of Comrades, Oak's advice carries a bit of weight. However, my mindset at this point is to dismiss it and to run with some ambition.

I'll have to check out the book again to review Fordyce's schedule to get an idea as to how long a long run needs to be and to see what other elements I may want to borrow.

Shoebacca, Concord's and other's input on back-to-back long run training has swayed me. It sounds like the Hanson philosophy of emphasizing fitness over distance still rings true for ultras. As with 24 mile long runs before a marathon, back-to-back training would build confidence in my ability to complete an ultra and would probably increase the odds of success, but would come at the price of a slower pace. I'm now thinking I'll continue to follow the Pfitzinger/Daniel's hybrid that seems to work well for halves and marathons, upping the mileage but limiting the long run to once per week so that the legs can handle some quicker runs during the week.

Lot of miles, just this week my Tivo picked up a rebroadcast of the 2010 Kauai marathon, which Wardian managed to win. It was enjoyable to watch him smoke a pair of Kenyans who went out at a 5:30 pace on a course with several thousand feet of elevation gain on an 80' humid day. Both DNF'd, and Wardian took the victory. Not sure what he was training for, but at least the dog had his day on that day.

Thanks again for the input.

I did a 45 miler on my 45th birthday, having never run a marathon before. I used a run/walk strategy and I finished in good shape. If you attempt to run the whole way, this will most likely end badly for you. However, if you run 20 minutes, walk 5 minutes and repeat this pattern RIGHT FROM THE START you should be fine. The reason is your running muscles dont ever get really trashed before you get to rest them if you employ run/walk right away. Do NOT start the run/ walk after you just can't run any more - that is too late and the 5 minute walk breaks won't be enough to rest your crucified running muscles and your chances of finishing will be pretty slim. Tom Osler, a pretty good ultra runner from the 70s wrote a book about this technique - it's pretty good and the technique worked for me. My training was just my regular daily diet of 45 minutes jogging plus I did 5 long run/walks spaced 2 weeks apart - the longest was 32 miles. I'm certain I could use this technique to do a 100 miler. I'm not a gifted runner, BTW. Good luck

I ran a pretty hard 50k in 4:14

I walked at the aid stations and often I would run up to a competitor and then walk if he was walking right behind him.

If it helps you run a faster time, I would walk. The only reason for not walking is pride. And pride will kill you in an ultra.

Just do the math on the mile pace.

B-Day Kid,

i've not run a 50 since 1980, but the memories are still sound of the 3 attempted during an 18 month period.

The first was a dnf. Legs had no more get at 39 miles. Rooky mistake--went out too fast.

#2. Upped the the length of my weekly long run.(22-25 miles) Left the middle of the week to a quality effort on Weds. and several shorter runs easy runs to connect the dots.

A key training component was the highly physical nature of my work at the time. Being on my feet and active 8-10 hours a day definitely played a positive role.

Race day I went out conservatively at 1:05/mile slower than my marathon pace. Felt good at half way and gradually advanced the pace to finish with a 15 min. negative split 5:44. Eureka.

Orange slices and straight water were my replacement choices enroute.

#3. Hilly Trail Course; Ice Age 50.

The bulk of my running is done on undulating gradual hills and I came in under prepared for the abrupt steepness the glacial terrain offered. By 35 miles there was a lot of walking going on, but I finished.

In summation I recovered from the 50's faster than the rigors of a hard raced Marathon.

All the best in your quest.