masters and 4 minute mile

I was going through some old VHS tapes a few days ago and stumbled upon an early '90's Prefontaine Classic where Wilson Waigwa was attempting to be the first master sub-4. He didn't make it that day.

"In 1994, on the Harvard University indoor track, Eamonn became the first (and, as of November 2009, only) man over age 40 to run a sub-four-minute mile. He was 41 at the time."

Referring to Eamonn Coghlan.

So I guess unless you are one of the greatest milers ever, you ain't breaking 4 past 40.

wonder if Geb will attempt this in a few years time

oh please wrote:

"In 1994, on the Harvard University indoor track, Eamonn became the first (and, as of November 2009, only) man over age 40 to run a sub-four-minute mile. He was 41 at the time."

Referring to Eamonn Coghlan.

So I guess unless you are one of the greatest milers ever, you ain't breaking 4 past 40.

I disagree. I think it's more about decent athletes WANTING to train after a certain age. Look at Tony Young: 3:42 in college, 3:46 at 40. I would venture a guess that most 3:55 guys (in their prime) are capable of sub 4 at 40 if they've prepared for it, it's just that by that point they're all more focused on their lives and careers to worry about training. That and several other factors are why the master's scene is so diluted. I believe that if TY can get within 5 seconds of his PR at 40, that anyone else who can't do it just hasn't tried hard enough (which is likely their personal choice).

It didn't happen for Steve Scott.

It didn't happen for Jim Sorenson.

It didn't happen for Jason Pyrah.

These guys were Olympic milers in their prime and tried pretty hard past 40 to break 4.

I agree that Tony Young running 3:46 over 40 is very impressive.

Bung (yes, Bung) wrote:

[quote]oh please wrote:

I believe that if TY can get within 5 seconds of his PR at 40, that anyone else who can't do it just hasn't tried hard enough (which is likely their personal choice).

Totally disagree - TY was a freak of nature - and I mean that with the utmost respect - he's a great guy. The affects of aging were kinder on TY than on the rest of us.

At 39 and training my ass off, I ran 18 seconds slower than my lifetime best and was thrilled to do it. Four seconds off your life time best at age 40, provided your lifetime best is reasonable, is an off-the-chart accomplishment.

Yeah, because the fact that one guy was able to do it means that everyone else can too.

I GUESS that several Africans could break 4.00 at 42 if given the incentive to do so and trained accordingly.Legat is the most likely.

Maybe Tony can chime in here, but as I recall his 3:46 race was not exactly at even pace, and he had to lead at a key point (600 to go?). So maybe he could have squeaked out a another couple of seconds. He also was not getting a race/week at his peak as a top miler needs to maximize their performance.

And no I'm not ventolin

The Russian Shabunin ran 3:43 this year....

I had a couple of years there (41-43+) where I was doing workouts that indicated I could be there for at least 1200m @ sub 4 mile pace, but it just never materalized in a race. Just before my 3:46 1500 in Eugene (yes I led for a short time before finishing 4th), I ran a 2:57 1200 in a workout followed by some fast 200's. After that I was not afraid to hang out near the front of some of the college races and try to kick with them. Good times & good memories. Since then Jim Sorenson and the Russian guy have destroyed my times.

To break 4:00 minutes for the 1500m will be my new goal when I turn 50 in 16 months! I have to adjust as I start to slow down.

The trick is to work your ass off but stay healthy. A very fine line.

Cheers

ty

And lest we forget, the track that Coghlan ran his 3:58 mile was and is a "tuned" indoor track designed for a runner about 5'10" and 140 lbs. The theory by the two men who designed the track was that it gave the runner roughly a 2% advantage in time. Coghlan had been running outdoors and had hit 4:04. So 3:58 was on the money.

Not to mention that Eamonn had some weird transmission/chassis setup that allowed him to run faster indoors than outdoors. Check out his current standing indoor all-time:

1 3:48.45 Hicham El Guerrouj

2 3:49.78 Eamonn Coghlan IRL 27.02.1983

3 3:49.89 Bernard Lagat KEN 11.02.2005

4 3:50.6 Eamonn Coghlan IRL 20.02.1981

5 3:50.70 Noureddine Morceli ALG 20.02.1993

-Tony, you are too modest- two or three seconds is hardly "destroying", you are in rarified air with these guys. Good luck on sub-4:00 @ 50

Here are the top mile performances by Masters -

For your enjoyment, below is a list of top miles from the 40+ crowd:

3:58.15i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/20/94 @Allston

4:01.39 Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/26/93 @New York

4:01.62 Vyacheslav Shabunin (40) 8/21/10 @Finland

4:02.53 David Moorcroft(40) 6/19/93 @Belfast

4:03.28i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/06/94 @Fairfax

4:04.55i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/04/94 @New York

4:04.98 Jim Sorensen (40) 7/06/07 @Lisle

4:05.27 Jim Sorensen (40) 6/27/07 @Bloomington

4:05.51i Tony Young (42) 3/05/05 @Seattle

4:05.95i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/05/93 @New York

4:06.39i Tony Young (41) 2/14/04 @Seattle

4:06.7?? Larry Almberg (43) 7/29/90 @New York

4:07.14i Tony Young (41) 1/31/04 @Seattle

4:07.25i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/07/93 @Fairfax

4:07.25 Tony Young (41) 6/14/03 @Seattle

da enabler wrote:

Here are the top mile performances by Masters -

For your enjoyment, below is a list of top miles from the 40+ crowd:

3:58.15i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/20/94 @Allston

4:01.39 Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/26/93 @New York

4:01.62 Vyacheslav Shabunin (40) 8/21/10 @Finland

4:02.53 David Moorcroft(40) 6/19/93 @Belfast

4:03.28i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/06/94 @Fairfax

4:04.55i Eamonn Coghlan (41) 2/04/94 @New York

4:04.98 Jim Sorensen (40) 7/06/07 @Lisle

4:05.27 Jim Sorensen (40) 6/27/07 @Bloomington

4:05.51i Tony Young (42) 3/05/05 @Seattle

4:05.95i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/05/93 @New York

4:06.39i Tony Young (41) 2/14/04 @Seattle

4:06.7?? Larry Almberg (43) 7/29/90 @New York

4:07.14i Tony Young (41) 1/31/04 @Seattle

4:07.25i Eamonn Coghlan (40) 2/07/93 @Fairfax

4:07.25 Tony Young (41) 6/14/03 @Seattle

Tony how fast do you think you will run the mile next year?

Mike Boit was maybe over forty years & able to run way fast.

if - that is a big IF - I would love to just get under 4:20 for the mile again next Winter/Spring.

Work - Life - Body have to all be aligned to get this goal.

Always a juggle.

yNoT

northwest master wrote:

if - that is a big IF - I would love to just get under 4:20 for the mile again next Winter/Spring.

Your goals line up nicely with the qualifying standards for Club Nationals :)

I was a sub 4 minute miler and have started running again in my early 40s after a 10+ year absence. Here is my two cents on the subject:

I would say the biggest issue for a former elite runner is motivation. To make the necessary sacrifices to run fast, but probably slower than you have, and to fit it in to a life that probably includes family, career and other responsibilities is very tough.

It takes a very different approach to training. You cannot train the way you did and you need to change your expectations. Not easy as we have a tendency to return to what worked in the past.

Many have spent some time away from the sport and are faced with getting their “fat butt” in shape before you can even begin training properly.

Injury. An older runner who is attempting the kind of intensity necessary to run sub 4 is constantly sidelined by small injuries that limit or delay consistent quality workouts. This probably goes back to motivation, and the time and resources (massage chiro etc) needed to over come these additional challenges.

Financial. With a few exceptions a 40+ athlete would have to be an “amateur” after having been a “professional” in his previous career.

Eamonn Coghlan did have financial incentives, and if I recall a lot of help from Gerard Hartman (massage etc). Despite injuries in his career he did train pretty consistently all through his 30s. I remember doing a couple workouts with him somewhere around ’89 -’90, and he was fitter and faster than I was.

Having said all this I do think it is possible for a 40+ runner to go significantly under 4 minutes. There are outliers who can overcome all the necessary challengers. Just look at Johnny Gray’s 1:48 indoors, or German Silva’s 2:08 marathon. Granted the marathon does not require the same intensity, but the right athlete with the right circumstances will be able to produce something impressive at any distance.

Just as some runners are outliers as 15-18 year olds, the same should hold for 40-45.

A quick look at the runners who have come close.

Steve Scott: Came back after recovering from cancer and still managed to run 3:47 for 1500m (I was actually in that race)

Dave Moorcroft: Not sure if he had much of a lay off from training between his professional careers and is masters career, but I seem to think he did.

Tony Young: Impressive

Jim Sorenson: I do not think he ever stopped training, but he did have frequent and extended layoffs due to injury throughout his career.

Vyacheslav Shabunin: I ran against him (he kicked my**) back in the day, but I know next to nothing about his training etc.

The bottom line is if a talented runner is able to sustain a career past 40 or is able to come back after a lay off and stay healthy enough the regain the ability to train at a high level, a sub 4 is certainly possible. It comes back to motivation and numbers. A few have tried, one has succeeded, but they are only a tiny fraction of runners who have the necessary talent to actually do it.

He ran two of them last year...one at the Boston indoor track, and one at the Armory. Qualified for NCAAs and finished 5th indoors.