What were they doing differently? Don't just say running more mileage as a number of guys are out there running high mileage and not running well...
Thoughts? Firsthand knowledge?
Fewer marathons meant our "best" were concentrated in a few marathons like NY/Boston.
Now people running sub 2:22 are trying to get trials qualifiers, so why would they run a slow/harder course when they got to hit the time? So they run CIM/houston/host of smaller/faster marathons.
Also, as far as foreigners go, you get a heck of a lot better pay day running some smaller marathon, winning in 2:17, then running a big one and getting nothing.
Another factor is there's less incentive to stick around and be a 2:20 guy now. There's little glory. It's harder to get to the trials. There's not the collection of a bunch of 2:20 type guys all training together for the heck of it.
The depth is easy to answer. Less guys staying around after college because where is the incentive?
Less Hollywood.
A lot of guys competed longer after college back then. The numbers of Americans running 90-120 miles a week were much greater. You could make $40,000 a year in 1983 money on the roads as a 28:30 10k runner. If you could pop the marathon in 2:10 someday you could dream of an Olympic medal and even be realistic.
ihaveanidea wrote:
Fewer marathons meant our "best" were concentrated in a few marathons like NY/Boston.
Now people running sub 2:22 are trying to get trials qualifiers, so why would they run a slow/harder course when they got to hit the time? So they run CIM/houston/host of smaller/faster marathons.
Also, as far as foreigners go, you get a heck of a lot better pay day running some smaller marathon, winning in 2:17, then running a big one and getting nothing.
Another factor is there's less incentive to stick around and be a 2:20 guy now. There's little glory. It's harder to get to the trials. There's not the collection of a bunch of 2:20 type guys all training together for the heck of it.
The depth is easy to answer. Less guys staying around after college because where is the incentive?
Where was it in 1983?
The simple answer is that the field wasn't stacked with east africans. So whether you believe their dominance is due to drugs, training, or race; they simply own distance running.
It would be more fair to have races for east africans vs each other, then have a race for the rest of the world.
ihaveanidea wrote:
Fewer marathons meant our "best" were concentrated in a few marathons like NY/Boston.
Now people running sub 2:22 are trying to get trials qualifiers, so why would they run a slow/harder course when they got to hit the time? So they run CIM/houston/host of smaller/faster marathons.
Also, as far as foreigners go, you get a heck of a lot better pay day running some smaller marathon, winning in 2:17, then running a big one and getting nothing.
Another factor is there's less incentive to stick around and be a 2:20 guy now. There's little glory. It's harder to get to the trials. There's not the collection of a bunch of 2:20 type guys all training together for the heck of it.
The depth is easy to answer. Less guys staying around after college because where is the incentive?
This is nonsense. They were running the same races in 1983 that they are now. There was no "dilution" becasue there were 3 times the number of sub 2:15 guys. At any marathon in the US there would be a hourde of Americans. The qualifying standard in 1984 was 2:19:04. No one whined about and no one looked for fast course. They showed up to the big dance and ran.
Also there was LESS financial incentive to continue running in 1983 than there is now. MUCH LESS.
1977 -- 1 under 2:13, 3 under 2:14, 7 under 2:15, 29 under 2:20
1978 -- 4 under 2:13, 5 under 2:14, 11 under 2:15, 2:18:08 (50)
1979 -- 8 under 2:13, 11 under 2:14, 22 under 2:15. 2:17:03(47)
1980 -- 13 under 2:13, 20 under 2:14, 27 under 2:15, 2:15:55 (34)
1981 -- 14 under 2:13, 26 under 2:14, 38 under 2:15, 143 under 2:20
1982 -- 11 under 2:13, 21 under 2:14 29 under 2:15,
1983 -- 23 under 2:13, 32 under 2:14, 44 under 2:15, 193 under 2:20
1984 -- 11 under 2:13, 15 under 2:14, 25 under 2:15, 123 under 2:20
1985 -- 11 under 2:13, 13 under 2:14, 26 under 2:15, 70 under 2:20
1986 -- 7 under 2:13, 16 under 2:14, 21 under 2:15, 79 under 2:20
1987 -- 6 under 2:13, 9 under 2:14, 75 under 2:20
1988 -- 3 under 2:13, 8 under 2:14, 54 under 2:20
1989 -- 5 under 2:13, 6 under 2:14, 44 under 2:20
1990 -- 6 under 2:13, 8 under 2:14, 11 under 2:15, 53 under 2:20
1991 -- 4 under 2:13, 4 under 2:14, 74 under 2:20
1992 -- 3 under 2:13, 6 under 2:14
1993 -- 4 under 2:13, 6 under 2:14, 45 under 2:20
1994 -- 4 under 2:13, 5 under 2:14, 45 under 2:20
1995 -- 1 under 2:13, 1 under 2:14, 56 under 2:20
1996 -- 2 under 2:13 5 under 2:14, 35 under 2:20
1997 -- 2 under 2:13, 5 under 2:14
1998 -- 1 under 2:13, 2 under 2:14
1999 -- 1 under 2:13, 2 under 2:14
2000 -- 3 under 2:13
2001 -- 1 under 2:13. 19 under 2:20
2002 -- 3 under 2:13
2003 -- 1 under 2:13, 1 under 2:14, 2 under 2:15, 16 under 2:20
2004 -- 6 under 2:13, 7 under 2:14, 10 under 2:15, 33 under 2:20
2005 -- 2 under 2:13, 5 under 2:14, 6 under 2:15, 17 under 2:20
2006 -- 8 under 2:13, 8 under 2:14, 13 under 2:15:00, 49 under 2:20
2007 -- 5 under 2:13, 6 under 2:14, 7 under 2:15
2008 -- 3 under 2:13, 4 under 2:14, 7 under 2:15
2009 -- 4 under 2:13, 7 under 2:14, 9 under 2:15
In 1978, 3,872 runners (mostly men at that time) were recognized in the published results for finishing the Boston Marathon (which in 1978 meant finishing within four hours). Of those finishers, 2,047 broke three hours. In 2002, only 1,024 men broke 3:00 hours. (Of course this was in a significantly larger field. There were 9,234 recognized male finishers, 6,672 of them in under four hours.)
2:09:02 1 Ryan Hall 08
2:10:19 1 Tony Sandoval '80
2:10:41 2 Benji Durden '80
2:10:55 3 Kyle Heffner '80
2:11:07 2 Dathan Ritzenhein 08
2:11:40 3 Brian Sell 08
2:11:42 1 Alan Culpepper '04
2:11:43 1 Pete Pfitzinger '84
2:11:44 2 Alberto Salazar '84
2:11:47 2 Meb Keflezighi '04
2:11:50 3 John Tuttle '84
2:11:51 1 Frank Shorter '76
2:11:58 2 Bill Rodgers '76
2:11:59 4 Dave Gordon '84
2:12:02 3 Dan Browne '04
2:12:25 5 Dean Matthews '84
2:12:26 1 Mark Conover '88
2:12:34 4 Khalid Khannouchi 08
2:12:35 4 Trent Briney '04
2:12:39 4 Ron Tabb '84
2:12:41 6 ----Sandoval '84
2:12:43 1 Steve Spence '92
2:12:45 1 Bob Kempainen '96
2:12:49 2 Ed Eyestone '88
2:12:51 2 ----Eyestone '92
2:12:54 3 ----Kempainen '92
2:12:54 5 Jason Lehmkuhle 08
1976 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials,
2:23:00
87 Qualifiers, 77 Starters, 49 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 13
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 4
Winning Time Frank Shorter 2:11:51
1980 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials, Buffalo, NY (May 24, 1980)
2:21:54
225 Qualifiers, 192 starters, 125 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 56
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 12
Winning Time (Tony Sandoval): 2:10:18
1984 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials
2:19:04
201 Qualifiers,172 Starters, 108 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: many
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 9
Winning Time Pete Pfitzinger (NY) 2:11:43
1988 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials
2:20:00
136 Qualifiers, 115 Starters, 77 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 17
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 5
Winning Time Mark Conover (CA) 2:12:26
1992 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials, Columbus, OH (April 11, 1992)
2:20:00
112 Qualifiers, 102 Starters, 55 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 17
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 4
Winning Time (Steve Spence): 2:12:43
1996 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials, Charlotte, NC (Feb. 17, 1996)
2:20:00 (A); 2:22:00 (B)
135 Qualifiers, 116 Starters, 90 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 24
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 7
Winning Time (Bob Kempainen): 2:12:45
2000 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials, Pittsburgh, PA (May 7, 2000)
2:20:00 (A); 2:22:00 (B)
114 Qualifiers, 99 Starters, 78 Finishers
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 9
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 0
Winning Time (Rod DeHaven): 2:15:30
2004 Men's Olympic Marathon Trials
Number of sub-2:20 finishers: 23
Number of sub-2:15 finishers: 5
Winning Time (Alan Culpepper): 2:11:42
1976: Eugene, Oregon May 22
2:23:00
87 Qualifiers, 77 Starters, 49 Finishers
1) Frank Shorter (FL) 2:11:51
2) Bill Rodgers (MA) 2:11:58
3) Don Kardong (WA) 2:13:54
4) Tony Sandoval (CA) 2:14:58
5) Tom Fleming (NJ) 2:15:48
6) Bob Varsha (GA) 2:15:50
7) John Bramley (CT) 2:17:16
8) Kirk Pfeffer (CA) 2:17:58
9) Jeff Galloway (GA) 2:18:29
10) Amby Burfoot (CT) 2:18:56
11) Bob Busby (MO) 2:19:05
12) Carl Hatfield (WV) 2:19:18
13) Marty Sudzina (PA) 2:19:55
1980: Buffalo, New York May 24
2:21:54
225 Qualifiers, 192 starters, 125 Finishers
1) Tony Sandoval (NM) 2:10:19 Trials Rec
2) Benji Durden (GA) 2:10:41
3) Kyle Heffner (TX) 2:10:55
4) Ron Tabb (TX) 2:12:39
5) Jeff Wells(TX) 2:13:16
6) Kevin McCarey (OR) 2:13:17
7) Randy Thomas (MA) 2:13:40
8) Gordon Minty (MI) 2:13:53
9) Frank Richardson (IA) 2:14:17
10) Dennis Rinde (CA) 2:14:22
11) Walt Saeger (OH) 2:14:38
12) Dave Smith (CA) 2:14:48
13) David Patterson (PA) 2:15:09
14) Chuck Hattersley (CO) 2:15:30
15) Jeff Foster (PA) 2:15:56
16) Dick Beardsley (MN) 2:16:01
17) John Dimick (VT) 2:16:08
18) Kim Burke (PA) 2:16:10
19) John Vitale (CT) 2:16:22
20) Ted Castaneda (CO) 2:16:38
21) Mike Pinocci (NV) 2:16:46
22) Gary Fanelli (PA) 2:16:49
23) Chuck Smead (CA) 2:16:58
24) Cliff Karthauser (NE) 2:16:58
25) Bill Glad (WA) 2:17:23
26) John Miley (OK) 2:17:23
27) Roy Kulikowski (SC) 2:17:26
28) Bruce Robinson (MD) 2:17:30
29) David Miley (OK) 2:17:40
30) Rick Callison (OH) 2:17:42
56 men under 2:20 - a Trials record
1984: Buffalo, New York May 26
2:19:04 201 Qualifiers,
172 Starters, 108 Finishers
1) Pete Pfitzinger (NY) 2:11:43
2) Alberto Salazar (OR) 2:11:44
3) John Tuttle (GA) 2:11:50
4) Dave Gordon (OR) 2:11:59
5) Dean Matthews (OR) 2:12:25
6) Tony Sandoval (NM) 2:12:41
7) Greg Meyer (MA) 2:13:29
8) Bill Rodgers (MA) 2:13:30
9) Sal Vega (NM) 2:14:18
10) Tom Raunig (MT) 2:16:02
11) Duncan MacDonald (HI) 2:16:56
12) David Hinz 2:17:18
13) Doug Avrit 2:17:45
14) Bill Weidenbach (WA) 2:17:45
15) Herb Wills (FL) 2:17:54
1988: Jersey City, New Jersey April 24
2:20:00
136 Qualifiers, 115 Starters, 77 Finishers
1) Mark Conover (CA) 2:12:26 $50,000
2) Ed Eyestone (UT) 2:12:49 $25,000
3) Pete Pfitzinger (MA) 2:13:09 $20,000
4) Paul Gompers (MA) 2:14:20 $15,000
5) Mark Curp (MO) 2:14:40 $10,000
6) Don Norman (PA) 2:15:49 $8,000
7) Bob Hodge (MA) 2:16:56 $6,000
8) Greg Meyer (MA) 2:17:40 $4,500
9) Steve Spence (PA) 2:17:49 $3,000
10) Herb Wills (FL) 2:17:52 $2,000
11) Randy Thomas (MA) 2:18:10 $1,500
12) Chris Prior (OR) 2:18:34 $1,000
13) Ken Judson (PA) 2:18:38 $900
14) Brad Ingram (OH) 2:18:45 $800
15) Bill Weidenbach (WA) 2:19:21 $700
16) Danny Grimes (CA) 2:19:34 $600
17) Paul Pilkington (UT) 2:19:39 $400
18) Tom Ratcliffe (MA) 2:20:22 $300
19) Darrell General (MD) 2:20:31 $200
20) Ron Gee (CA) 2:20:58 $100
1992: Columbus, Ohio April 11
2:20:00
112 Qualifiers, 102 Starters, 55 Finishers
1) Steve Spence (PA) 2:12:43 $58,000
2) Ed Eyestone (UT) 2:12:51 $48,000
3) Bob Kempainen (MN) 2:12:54 $38,000
4) Keith Brantly (FL) 2:14:16 $15,000
5) Bill Reifsnyder (NM) 2:15:45 $10,000
6) Steve Taylor (VA) 2:16:14 $8,000
7) Chris Fox (MD) 2:16:40 $7,000
8) Jim Hage (DC) 2:16:47 $6,000
9) Danny Gonzalez (CO) 2:17:53 $5,000
10) Mark Conover (CA) 2:18:17 $4,000
11) Joe Leuchtmann (MO) 2:19:01 $3,000
12) Don Johns (MI) 2:19:05 $2,500
13) Dan Held (WI) 2:19:23 $2,000
14) Chad Bennion (UT) 2:19:25 $1,750
15) Chris Prior (CO) 2:19:26 $1,500
16) Paul McGovern (MA) 2:19:35 $1,250
17) Tom Stevens (MD) 2:19:41 $1,000
18) Scott Bagley (NY) 2:21:05 $800
19) Matt Ebiner (CA) 2:21:13 $700
20) Dave Dunham (NH) 2:21:18 $500
1996: Charlotte, North Carolina February 17
2:20:00 (A); 2:22:00 (B)
135 Qualifiers, 116 Starters, 90 Finishers
1) Bob Kempainen (MN) 2:12:45 $100,000
2) Mark Coogan (CO) 2:13:05 $40,000
3) Keith Brantly (FL) 2:13:22 $30,000
4) Steve Plasencia (MN) 2:14:20 $20,000
5) Marco Ochoa (CO) 2:14:22 $15,000
6) Keith Dowling (NM) 2:14:30 $10,000
7) Dan Held (WI) 2:14:53 $9,000
8) Jon Warren (TX) 2:15:59 $7,000
9) Jeff Jacobs (IL) 2:16:13 $5,000
10) David Morris (NM) 2:16:20 $4,000
11) Terrence Mahon (PA) 2:16:28 $3,000
12) Darrell General (MD) 2:16:30 $2,500
13) Ashley Johnson (AZ) 2:16:39 $2,000
14) Craig Woshner (VA) 2:16:41 $1,500
15) Ed Eyestone (UT) 2:16:51 $1,000
16) Budd Coates (PA) 2:17:26
17) Jose Iniguez (TX) 2:17:42
18) Kevin Collins (NY) 2:17:51
19) Dennis Simonaitis (UT) 2:17:57
20) John Dimoff (OR) 2:18:06
21) Howard Nippert (VA) 2:19:08
22) Joe LeMay (CT) 2:19:10
23) Tom Redding (OK) 2:19:54
24) Steve Wilson (FL) 2:19:58
25) Will Kimball (OR) 2:20:21
2000: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania May 7
2:20:00 (A); 2:22:00 (B)
114 Qualifiers, 99 Starters, 78 Finishers
1) Rod DeHaven (WI) 2:15:30 $75,000*
2) Peter DeLaCerda (CO) 2:16:18 $25,000
3) Mark Coogan (MD) 2:17:04 $20,000
4) Scott Larson (CO) 2:17:15 $17,500
5) Eddy Hellebuyck (NM) 2:18:30 $15,000
6) Dave Scudamore (CA) 2:18:38 $10,000
7) Gary Stolz (CA) 2:18:46 $9,000
8) Jeff Campbell (CO) 2:19:18 $8,000
9) Danny Martinez (CA) 2:19:38 $7,000
10) Teddy Mitchell (CO) 2:20:33 $6,000
11) Clint Verran (MI) 2:20:45 $5,500
12) Kelly Mortenson (CO) 2:20:55 $5,000
13) Craig Lawson (UT) 2:21:01 $4,500
14) Fred Kieser (OH) 2:21:12 $4,000
15) Mike Dudley (CO) 2:21:27 $3,500
16) Jon Hume (CO) 2:21:53 $3,000
17) Jeff Jacobs (IL) 2:22:13 $2,500
18) Josh Cox (CA) 2:22:30 $2,000
19) Tom Jeffrey (VA) 2:22:41 $1,500
20) Greg Wenneborg (AZ) 2:22:47 $1,000
*Includes $35,000 Olympic Team Bonus
2004
1 Alan Culpepper 31 Lafayette CO 2:11:42
2 Meb Keflezighi 28 San Diego CA 2:11:47
3 Daniel Browne 28 Beaverton OR 2:12:02
4 Trent Briney 25 Rochester Hills MI 2:12:35
5 Clint Verran 28 Rochester Hills MI 2:14:37
6 Scott Larson 34 Superior CO 2:15:03
7 Josh Cox 28 Murrieta CA 2:15:18
8 Eddy Hellebuyck 43 Albuquerque NM 2:15:36
9 Peter Gilmore 26 Menlo Park CA 2:15:44
10 Jason Lehmkuhle 26 St. Paul MN 2:16:27
11 Keith Dowling 34 Reston VA 2:16:50
12 Kevin Collins 32 Albuquerque NM 2:17:00
13 Brian Sell 25 Rochester Hills MI 2:17:20
14 Fred Kieser 32 Cleveland OH 2:17:21
15 Scott Strand 35 Birmingham AL 2:17:44
16 Steven Moreno 26 Oakland CA 2:17:48
17 Corey Creasey 24 Berkeley CA 2:17:58
18 Scott Nicholas 30 Portland OR 2:18:13
19 Conor Holt 31 Norman OK 2:18:17
20 Christopher Banks 25 Alexandria VA 2:18:56
21 Ryan Meissen 25 River Falls WI 2:19:02
22 Scott Goff 27 Boulder CO 2:19:11
23 Ryan Shay 24 East Jordan MI 2:19:20
24 Matt Sandercock 34 Downingtown PA 2:20:23
25 Carl Rundell 35 Birmingham MI 2:21:08
26 John Dimoff 32 Portland OR 2:21:12
27 Michael Cox 28 Princeton WV 2:21:52
28 Jason Ryf 32 Oshkosh WI 2:21:55
29 Kevin Taylor 28 Raleigh NC 2:22:04
30 Erik Kean 26 Cheyenne WY 2:22:09
31 Brantley Lutz 28 Albuquerque NM 2:22:17
32 Edward Callinan 29 Cherry Hill NJ 2:22:20
33 Michael Wardian 29 Arlington VA 2:22:40
34 Eric Blake 24 Plattsburgh NY 2:22:44
2008
1 2:09:02 Ryan Hall
2 2:11:07 Dathan Ritzenhein
3 2:11:40 Brian Sell
4 2:12:34 Khalid Khannouchi
5 2:12:54 Jason Lehmkuhle
6 2:13:23 Daniel Browne
7 2:14:56 Nathaniel Jenkins
8 2:15:09 Meb Keflezighi
9 2:15:22 Josh Rohatinsky
10 2:15:27 Jason Hartmann
11 2:16:14 Matthew Gonzales
12 2:16:28 Mike Morgan
13 2:16:47 Fasil Bizuneh
14 2:16:54 James Carney
15 2:16:54 Steve Sundell
16 2:17:01 Christopher Raabe
17 2:17:08 Nick Arciniaga
18 2:17:10 Clint Verran
19 2:17:17 Matt Pelletier
20 2:17:58 Chad Johnson
21 2:18:10 Joshua Ordway
22 2:18:19 Jacob Frey
23 2:18:22 Joe Driscoll
24 2:18:23 John Mentzer
25 2:18:25 Allen Wagner
26 2:18:30 Patrick Rizzo
27 2:18:31 Sergio Reyes
28 2:18:35 Patrick Moulton
29 2:18:35 Mikhail Sayenko
30 2:18:45 Donovan Fellows
31 2:18:47 Miguel Nuci
32 2:18:51 Michael Reneau
33 2:18:56 Macharia Yuot
34 2:18:59 Dan Sutton
35 2:19:01 Nicholas Cordes
36 2:19:05 Teren Jameson
37 2:19:21 Chris Lundstrom
38 2:19:25 Eric Post
39 2:19:47 Matthew Folk
40 2:20:09 James Lander
41 2:20:12 Michael Cox
42 2:20:28 Greg Costello
43 2:20:34 Luke Humphrey
44 2:20:48 John Lucas
45 2:21:12 John Service
46 2:21:21 Adam Tribble
47 2:21:30 Todd Snyder
48 2:21:36 Nick Schuetze
49 2:22:03 Alan Horton
50 2:22:11 James Nielsen
51 2:22:23 Robert Cannon
52 2:22:26 Daniel Ellis
53 2:22:34 Paul Petersen
54 2:22:40 Steve Meinelt
55 2:23:04 Christopher Zieman
56 2:23:06 Justin Young
57 2:23:08 Nathan Wadsworth
58 2:23:31 Konrad Knutsen
59 2:23:34 Steven Moreno
60 2:23:38 Ryan Meissen
61 2:23:44 Terrance Shea
62 2:23:58 Matt Levassiur
63 2:24:10 Zachary Schendel
64 2:24:15 Aaron Sharp
65 2:24:19 Corey Stelljes
66 2:24:57 David Williams
67 2:25:01 Cecil Franke
68 2:25:01 Eric Heins
69 2:25:10 James McGown
70 2:25:18 Marzuki Stevens
71 2:25:32 Lance Parker
72 2:25:57 Jason Delaney
73 2:26:15 Michael McKeeman
74 2:26:23 Andy Martin
75 2:26:29 Trent Briney
76 2:26:34 Thomas Kutter
77 2:26:37 Edward Baker
78 2:27:23 Nick Stanko
79 2:27:33 Chris Wehrman
80 2:27:33 James Jurcevich
81 2:27:44 Thomas Greenless
82 2:28:09 Pete Gilman
83 2:28:29 Casey Moulton
84 2:28:40 Matthew Byrne
85 2:28:45 Danny Mackey
86 2:29:14 Brad Poore
87 2:29:31 Karl Dusen
88 2:29:32 David Danley
89 2:30:22 Christopher Banks
90 2:30:41 Sean Sundwall
91 2:30:45 Jeff Jonaitis
92 2:30:54 Michael Wardian
93 2:31:31 Marc Jeuland
94 2:31:37 Kyle Baker
95 2:31:53 Donnie Franzen
96 2:32:26 Jason Ryf
97 2:33:03 Jonathan Little
98 2:33:58 Martin Rosendahl
99 2:34:56 Nicholas McCombs
100 2:36:09 Ben Rosario
101 2:38:36 Justin Patananan
102 2:39:20 Antonio Arce
103 2:39:32 Steven Frisone
104 2:42:41 Thomas McGlynn
So East Africans are stopping Americans from training and trying at NYCM?
Training? How was training different?
Great stuff, malmo. Do you think one factor is a sizeable number of at or near the top, aspiring young Americans are sticking to the shorter distances (5000-10000 at Stanford for instance), and thus are not emphasizing the marathon quite as much?
Aquafina wrote:
The simple answer is that the field wasn't stacked with east africans. So whether you believe their dominance is due to drugs, training, or race; they simply own distance running.
It would be more fair to have races for east africans vs each other, then have a race for the rest of the world.
The East African have not change the results in 35 years at New York. If you run 2:14:00 you will be in the top 10 today -- just as it was in 1983. To finish in the top 25 today is MUCH EASIER than it was in 1983.
The depth was much better in 1983.
ihaveanidea wrote:
Fewer marathons meant our "best" were concentrated in a few marathons like NY/Boston.
Now people running sub 2:22 are trying to get trials qualifiers, so why would they run a slow/harder course when they got to hit the time? So they run CIM/houston/host of smaller/faster marathons.
Also, as far as foreigners go, you get a heck of a lot better pay day running some smaller marathon, winning in 2:17, then running a big one and getting nothing.
Here's what the data shows. I only have good data for '83 for 2:14:19 and better, so I'll use that as the cutoff.
1983: 48 total sub-2:14:19 by Americans, run by 38 different athletes
19 in Boston
10 in NY
4 in Houston
2 in Duluth
13 other races had 1 each
2010: 11 total sub-2:14:19 by Americans, run by 11 different athletes
4 in Boston
2 in NY
2 in St. Paul
3 other races had 1 each
Our depth sucks ass. What's notable is that NOBODY ran two decent marathons this year.
Video games. The downfall of America's youth. Why get up off their lazy ass's and go outside and run when you can sit in front of a TV and do it?
2 things:
1) JSquire, that is not fair to Meb. He ran 2 very decent marathons this year
2) JSquire and Malmo, you have the stats, but I haven't read anything from you guys what you think explains it.
I don't know what the guys did back in the mid 1980s so can't draw a comparison. Nor do I know what guys like Ritz do on a day-to-day basis.
BUT, I am a coach, so I can speak to what my athletes do and what I do... and it seems to work well as I have coached an OT qualifier and a number of sub 2:30:00 guys. I also believe if the guys on my team had the durability and the desire to put in big miles, that many of them in a few years could be trials qualifiers. Unfortunately, nearly none have the desire to run 120 mpw for 2, 3 or more years. Most want to see how good they can get while running 75-100 mpw. I am one of those guys.
Family, work and social commitments, at least in NYC, outweigh the 5:00-10:00 jump that COULD come with YEARS of sacrifice For whatever reason, I think this mindset is a common one and perhaps a different one from runners in the 70s and 80s. Why run 50% more then I do now to run 2:20 rather then 2:25? or 2:25 rather then 2:30. Or 2:15 rather then 2:20 (or in my case, 2:30 rather then 2:40)? At the end of the day, the benefits don't outweigh the costs for most. Why did they in the 1970s and 1980s? I don't know.
For the elites who underperform, I can't say why that is the case. Too little racing? Poor training? Bad luck? All or some of these reasons? Beats me.
The biggest difference I see in the training of guys in the 80s to now (including 800-marathon), is that back then people were training to run their best possible come race day. Nowadays, guys train to get better at training. They want their training to look so impressive that even if their races are sub-par, they can say "well I ran 140 miles per week just like Geb." 2:15 guys should not train like 2:04 guys. They should train to be 2:13 guys. Ignorant, overtraining. That's the reason. Running an extra 20-40 miles a week won't make a 2:20 guy into 2:10. That's foolish.
adsljkasd wrote:
http://www.athlinks.com/time.aspx?eventid=60270What were they doing differently? Don't just say running more mileage as a number of guys are out there running high mileage and not running well...
Thoughts? Firsthand knowledge?
A lot of runners today place personal health over running fast times. The old timer guys listed in this thread ran really fast back in the day and are now paying the price. They went balls to the wall 24/7 and now they have shot to Sh!t adrenal glands, kidney failure, decimated immune system etc...
I think people woke up to the fact that it just isn't worth it.
A few points:
1. The marathon was a huge sporting event in the US in the mid-80s. I remember watching live gun to tape coverage for NY. Winner of the marathon was front page of the newspaper.
2. In the 1980s, you could travel to and stay in NY for not much more than going to any other US city. Now, it is just crazy expensive.
3. In the late 1970s to early 80s, there was always a debate over whether you could work full time and train on an elite level. Many of the runners in the stats above had full time jobs. No one in the 1980s had the kind of support that OTC/Nike/MamouthTC/MacMillan/Hanson have now.
4. In the 80s the marathon was an American sport. We loved it and excelled at it. Times have changed. It is no longer our sport. Kind of like men's tennis. We have gone from McEnroe, Connors, Sampras, Agassi to nothing. When someone else dominates your sport, it becomes a very big psychological issue of whether it is attainable anymore or whether others have reached another level.
5. You were pretty close if you were a sub 2:14 guy in the 80s. Now, a sub 2:14 guy is regularly a mile or more behind the winner. Not as much motivation to put off med school to finish while the winner is doing a post race interview.
6. A number of US marathons have olympic development programs that will cover your expenses if you have a shot at a qualifying time. Major financial motivation to stay away from NY.
From what I'm reading on here is that these days everyone has an excuse, the bottom line is that now people aren't twilling to chase the dream and work for it.
Back in the 80's we ran for the personal satisfaction and the challenge that running fast would provide. No excuses, just shut up and run. Personally I loved it and was willing to go out no matter what. I drove 24 hours from NH to tampa to run Gasparilla, slept on the beach, hitch hiked to Peachtree from NH just to run against the best, it was a blast.
This subject as been argued ad-nauseum, and therein lies the answer. It's not about the shoes, and it's not about the gels. It's not about V02MAX testing and compression socks. It's about spirit, and that spirit is gone. It has since been replaced by a neurotic collective consciousness.
adsljkasd wrote:
Training? How was training different?
It used to be that people trained to race. Now it seems that training is an end in itself.
I have no idea what was going on in Albertos mind when he and Ritz kept boasting about workouts, nor why they would want to leave their races on the training track. My first thought when I heard that Ritzenhein ran 10x 1 mile at altitude was "what the hell does that have to do with running a marathon at sea level?"
Albert was once coached by one of the best marathoning coaches ever - Bill Squires. Why he thinks he needs to reinvent the wheel is baffling to me.